Impending Shutdown of DHS

[s_stabeler]

. The Republican party has stopped the country on a dime multiple times over impeachments, budget shutdowns, and whether or not to increase limits on the debt ceiling for debt that was already created.

The game has not changed in at least two decades.

not 100% true. Prior to the Tea Party crap, the shutdowns were over fiscal policy- in other words, the party blocking the bill wanted BUDGETARY concessions- for an example, the republicans have been demanding budgets not include increases in taxation for a while. While I disagree, that IS at least legitimate grounds to block a supply bill on- because it is blocking it on (ultimately) fiscal grounds, not political ones. ( Yeah, fiscal policy is somewhat political, but the point is that the blocking party had an issue with the BUDGET)

Overall, though, the issue with the Republicans is a faulty definition of compromise. The republicans seem to think that compromise means "give us what we want", when it actually means "agree something acceptable to both sides"- Oh, and an annoying case of asking for further compromise each and every time an opportunity comes up. ( by that, I mean that, for example, the first time the debt ceiling was nearly hit, the republicans asked for cuts to various programs, and refused tax cuts for the rich. The second time, they asked for further cuts ( to the same programs, IIRC) and again refused any tax rises for the rich. It makes it look kinda like they're trying to get their way by stealth- forcing cuts to programs until said programs fail)

[mjr]

People expect congress to be a dysfunctional shit hole of idiots.

There's a reason for that expectation...

They hate congress but yet that never seems to translate over to their specific congressmen ( provided he's on the same team ). Given the absurd rate of re-election they have.

This is true. I don't know what the approval rate currently is, but the past few years, the approval rate for Congress as a whole has been in the mid-teens, or thereabouts. Individual Congresspeople have had approval ratings in the mid 60% range, or so, on average.

I live in a pretty solidly Republican district. Last time around, I voted for an independent candidate, because I liked the ideas that candidate presented.

That, and the guy who's in office now (who I figured would win) has been there going on 30 years. That's WAY too long.

Personally, I'd like to see the whole lot of them (all 535) turned over during the next few election cycles, since the Senate elections are staggered (1/3 of the Senate up for election every two years).

[Gravekeeper]

It remains to be seen how long it will be successful before it stops working. The thing is, it keeps working eventhough short term it always "looks" like it's hurting the party.

Well, the thing is at this point its still working because of political apathy and misinformation. People expect congress to be a dysfunctional shit hole of idiots. They're use to it. They hate congress but yet that never seems to translate over to their specific congressmen ( provided he's on the same team ). Given the absurd rate of re-election they have.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

In the late 90's, impeachment precedings were initiated over whether or not a sitting President lied about sex with an intern. To rephrase, there was a questions as to whether or not a sitting president should be removed from office 'cuz he fibbed.

People can enjoy the finer points of that all they'd like. But political theatricality, antagonism, and obstruction have easily been around since 1994 during the first contract with America. The Republican party has stopped the country on a dime multiple times over impeachments, budget shutdowns, and whether or not to increase limits on the debt ceiling for debt that was already created.

The game has not changed in at least two decades.

I can't speak for the obstructionism of Democrats during the Reagan years if that was truly a thing, but the Gingrification of the Republican playbook has been consistently used for at least two decades.

It remains to be seen how long it will be successful before it stops working. The thing is, it keeps working eventhough short term it always "looks" like it's hurting the party.

[Gravekeeper]

You do realize people dislike Obama for more reasons than he's black. And the people who dislike Obama for being black are probably the people who already said they don't like immigrants.

A) That was a bitter joke with a long running meme. Also note the "etc".

B) I fail to see how your point alters the root of the problem in any way. An unsettling large chunk of Republicans are basing their opinion not on the merit of the issue or what's best for the country but on whose team's captain suggested it.

C) Please cite an example where this group has a real valid issue with the Obama administration that is not a talking point they were told to repeat by the TV. From what I have seen, Democrats/Liberals ( ironically ) have far more legitimate issues with Obama than the average Republican does. Hell, I have a list of things I don't like about his policies. But I would not reject a good idea simply because of whose name is on the letterhead.

Conversely, rejecting bipartisanship has been the GOP's day 1 game plan and they now in essence can no longer control the monster they created as evident by this DHS fiasco. Partisanship in the US has seen a sharp and alarming rise. In fact the country is more politically partisan right now than at any other point in modern history.

The death slide into severe partisanship began after the invasion of Iraq with Republicans polarizing:



Republicans began to rapidly polarize while Democrats stayed stable. Then when Obama takes office ( and the obstructionist bullshit begins in congress ) the Democrats begin to polarize as well in response. Democrats have been moving slowly and consistently to the left on issues for the last 20 years. While Republicans began a rapid swing to the right on issues over the last decade beginning after the launch of the Iraq war.

Obama has the widest partisan approval gap of any president since they started keeping track of these things. More so than even G.W. Bush and this gap began on day one before he even had a chance to ruin an economy and invade two countries like Bush. Obama polls an average of 14% amongst Republicans and 81% amongst Democrats. Bush was 81 / 23 for reference.

But Bush's approval rating started in the mid 40's amongst Democrats and only tanked after the launch of the Iraq war. It likewise tanked amongst Republicans but it still sat around 60% amongst Republicans by the end of his presidency.

Obama on the other hand began with an approval rating of 23-24% amongst Republicans. Notably, Clinton also began his presidency with an approval rating around 25-26 amongst Republicans. This slowly rose into the high 30s but then tanked against after the blowjob circus. But he still ended is presidency with an approval rating in the low 30s amongst Republicans.

Conversely, Obama's approval rating with Republicans has never gone up. It started around 24. Dropped like a rock to 13-14 with the Affordable Care Act ( Something Republicans consistently support when you call it the Affordable Care Act instead of Obamacare ). And has since only continued to decline and currently sits around 9-10 amongst Republicans.

So, now, tell me. What were these real reasons that Republicans disliked Obama given that he began his presidency with the lowest approval rating amongst Republicans of any modern president and has only dropped lower. To the point where he is also the lowest polling president in modern history amongst Republicans. Even Carter never fell below 24-25% amongst Republicans and they hold him up as one of the worst presidents in history.

If we look at Obama's campaign platform, there's nothing there that is any kind of major issue for anyone except rich assholes. The only "wild" ideas Obama had was heath care reform and putting an end to shitting away money and lives in Iraq. Obama and McCain actually had some similar positions and even agreed on a number of major issues. They even held the same or similar positions on same sex marriage and abortion for fuck sakes. There's nothing in his campaign that is out of the ordinary at all for a Democratic president. So what, pray tell, was the real problem with Obama?

[MadMike]

You do realize people dislike Obama for more reasons than he's black.

I think most of the people who dislike him do so because he's with the "other" party, not because he's the "wrong" color. The partisan bullshit has really gotten out of hand in the last decade or so.

[Andara Bledin]

You do realize people dislike Obama for more reasons than he's black. And the people who dislike Obama for being black are probably the people who already said they don't like immigrants.

Thus the "etc"...

[Greenday]

We get it he's black, etc. -.-

You do realize people dislike Obama for more reasons than he's black. And the people who dislike Obama for being black are probably the people who already said they don't like immigrants.

[Gravekeeper]

Yes, at least make the fuckers work for it.

Pretty sure it was an Executive Order, not a law voted on.

Correct. The House and Senate have been picking their ass about immigration reform for years. Hell, for pretty much Obama's entire presidency and half of Bush's before him. The stupidest part is Reagan and Bush Sr did the exact same thing with executive action but of course its not a problem when they do it. Hell, not many people outside of the GOP even have a problem with it when Obama does it. Considering public opinion in favour of immigration reform sits at 76% and is high across all party/religious/race lines.

It still polls like Obamacare though. Tell Republicans about it and they like it, tell them its Obama's and they dislike it:

When there is no mention of Obama, two-thirds (67 percent) of Republicans favor allowing illegal immigrants who are parents of those with legal status to avoid deportation if they meet certain requirements. But when Obama is linked to the policy, support among Republicans drops 16 points to 51 percent. Support among independents also falls 13 points when Obama is linked to the policy, from 77 percent to 64 percent. Among Democrats, there is no statistically significant effect in support.

The “Obama Effect” is even more pronounced in attitudes about the DREAM Act. When Obama is not identified with the policy, six in ten (60 percent) Republicans favor allowing illegal immigrants brought to the U.S. as children to gain legal resident status if they attend college or join the military. Once Obama is identified with the policy, Republican attitudes invert: Support plummets 23 points to only 37 percent, while opposition rises to nearly 6-in-10 (58 percent).

We get it he's black, etc. -.-

[mjr]

and I have no major objection to being cathed and hiding a pee bag under my clothing. And if you can not eat from dinner to breakfast, you can manage a 13 hour fast.

I think she did something very similar to that. I don't recall all the details, but people were more interested in the pink sneakers she was wearing.

But it wouldn't surprise me.

But yeah, old-school filibusters need to be brought back.

[AccountingDrone]

Texas has somewhat of an "old school" filibuster style, I believe. I think it was in effect their last legislative session. I think they tried to use it against Wendy Davis. She had to stand up and talk for 13 hours straight, if I recall correctly. She couldn't eat, sit down, or lean on the desk, or the others could call for an immediate vote.

*snicker* then I would be perfect, can't make me stand and my wheelchair is comfy =) and I have no major objection to being cathed and hiding a pee bag under my clothing. And if you can not eat from dinner to breakfast, you can manage a 13 hour fast. [in general, most people do not actually time their meals to be exactly 8 hours apart ...]

[Greenday]

immigration reform that (presumably) has already been voted upon, and passed.

Pretty sure it was an Executive Order, not a law voted on.

[Gravekeeper]

Democrats: "We'll vote NO because the Republicans won't take the immigration stuff out of the DHS funding bill! If they'd just give us what we want, that wouldn't happen!"

Republicans: "We're not taking the immigration stuff out of the bill. If you'd just vote YES on it, and give us what we want, then the DHS will get funded."

You can't seriously be equating these two? That's not even logical. Disagreeing with someone doing something Bad(tm) isn't doing something equally Bad(tm) yourself. You're in full false equivalence territory or you don't know the full details of what's going on.

This is all political theatre by the GOP. They had no intention of really passing the bill with the riders they inserted about immigration. They know full well that even if it did manage to get to Obama's desk he would veto it. Because he already told them up front he would veto any bullshit they tried to pull over immigration.

The entire thing the GOP is "objecting" too is Obama taking executive action on immigration reform. Something he did because the GOP refused to put forward any immigration plan of their own for years. Until he warned them that if they didn't get their shit together and address the issue he would do it himself.

They of course did not get their shit together because that's the entire game plan the GOP flat out stated from day one of Obama's presidency. They refuse to govern so that they can then try and lay the blame for the resulting mess at Obama's feet. They refused to do anything about immigration themselves for years despite Obama's urging until he used executive action. Which is what they wanted so they could then go through the same childish song and dance routine yet again trying to blame Obama for their own inability or unwillingness to govern.

The GOP created this situation so they could yell at it and pretend they were the victims standing up to Big Bad Obama. The same way they did over the government shut down fiasco a little while back. When they near destroyed your economy, yet again, and got your credit rating downgraded. While the rest of the world watched in horror and embarrassment at the way they were conducting themselves. Worried that the global economy would get tanked again because some fucking idiots that are suppose to run your country can't grow the fuck up and act like adults.

So stop with this both sides are bad bullshit. They are *not* equal in this fuckery off that is US politics. They haven't been equal in years. Nor does the damage the GOP does just affect your country.

Even other Republicans know this is crazy and are now sort of watching in disbelief that there's this "Freedom Caucus" of 52 Tea Party Republicans that are still clinging too. The GOP's bluff was called and they're trying to find the least embarrassing way to extract themselves from the mess they created. Only to find these have this one group of even bigger idiots that genuinely drank the Koolaid.

The GOP told you up front they were going to do everything they could to ruin Obama's presidency. They obstruct everything, they try to repeal anything that does get through and even when they don't get their way they push ways to sabotage things they don't like. They lost on the Affordable Health Care Act, both politically and in the arena of public opinion. They can't repeal it so instead they try to defund it. It's their entire MO to sabotage any politician decision they don't agree with even if they lost that decision through the legitimate mechanisms of government.

And that, is the entire problem and the thing I do not understand about the US. Democracy means accepting the will of the people even if you do not agree with it. Not actively working to sabotage the will of the people if they don't agree with you.

A democracy does not function if those on the "losing" side of a discussion cannot accept the outcome of the system they agreed to be part of.

[s_stabeler]

except for the difference is, the Republicans deliberately inserted a poison pill- either the Democrats ditch their immigration reform, or the DHS loses it's funding, and the Republicans WILL say "Obama supports Terrorists! Look, he sacrificed funding for anti-terror efforts!"- immigration reform that (presumably) has already been voted upon, and passed. If the republicans get their way, then a precedent is set that anything and everything is acceptable in order to get your way. How long would it be until the Republicans ( for example) demanded a bill banning abortion in exchange for passing the Budget? ( it's the same principle- that a fiscal bill can be held hostage for a political reason, rather than a fiscal one)

The Democrats? just want a simple, clean fiscal bill- going by the principle that you don't screw with the ability for the government to pay the bills for political reasons.

AM I saying the democrats never filibuster? no. However, everywhere else in the world there is a convention that fiscal bills aren't subject to political shenanigans. ( it's actually illegal for the House of Lords in the UK to reject a fiscal bill- they can only delay it) THAT is the problem here.

[mjr]

That's another thing- since WHEN did they make filibustering merely a matter of saying "i'm filibustering this bill" and then it magically needs a supermajority to pass? Filibustering SHOULD be difficult.

Remember, the House and the Senate basically get to make their own rules, I think. And neither wants to acquiesce, and make the rules harder.

Texas has somewhat of an "old school" filibuster style, I believe. I think it was in effect their last legislative session. I think they tried to use it against Wendy Davis. She had to stand up and talk for 13 hours straight, if I recall correctly. She couldn't eat, sit down, or lean on the desk, or the others could call for an immediate vote.

" It wouldn't have happened if they'd agree to our demands, despite the fact that they have been voted on umpteen million times already"

Again, something both sides do.

Democrats: "We'll vote NO because the Republicans won't take the immigration stuff out of the DHS funding bill! If they'd just give us what we want, that wouldn't happen!"

Republicans: "We're not taking the immigration stuff out of the bill. If you'd just vote YES on it, and give us what we want, then the DHS will get funded."

But when they try to pass the blame for their childish antics...

Exactly what it is...from both sides of the aisle.