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Real Money Trading in MMOs (long)

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  • Real Money Trading in MMOs (long)

    Since BlaqueKatt suggesting bringing the topic over here, I thought I'd get it kicked off.

    For those who don't know, or don't play any MMOs, there is a practice that some groups, in whatever game it is, from Guild Wars to Final Fantasy XI to World of Warcraft, that have decided to try and turn a personal profit via the online world.

    They do this by creating a character, and using that character solely as a means of producing vast quantities of in-game currency. This in-game currency is then sold to other players of the game for real-world cash. Thus, the term Real Money Trade, or RMT.

    Now, I play FFXI. When I first started playing, inflation was rampant. The game has a self-sustained economy. There are relatively few ways to create wealth in the game, which I shall list:

    1) Complete specific quests in the game, and receive a reward of gil (the in-game currency on FFXI).
    2) Defeating certain classes of monsters, the Beastmen (Orcs, Goblins, Yagudo, Antica, and some others), would result in a small amount of gil being dropped by the defeated monster.
    3) Defeating certain Notorious Monsters (think bigger, nastier versions of creatures that show up every so often) also causes a certain amount og gil to drop.
    4) Taking the items that monsters drop when they are defeated and selling those items to an NPC shopkeep.

    Now, the game also provides a certain set of 'gil-sinks', or things designed to take money out of the economy.

    1) Buying items from the NPC shopkeeps, or from the Crafting Guilds.
    2) Renting chocobos to move around the world more rapidly.
    3) Fare on airships and boats to get from one place to somewhere far away, or fees paid to the NPCs that teleport your character to and from various regions of the world.
    4) Fees on the various Auction Houses (which range from 1%+1 of the price you list an item at to 2%+100 of the asking price, consider that some items are priced at tens to hundreds of thousands of gil, and some even into a million or more for extremely valuable items).
    5) Taxes on items in another player's bazaar (which are 5% of the price in one location, 10% in another area).

    Aside from these things, the amount of gil in circulation doesn't change. Buying something from another player simply moves the money around from you to him, minus whatever fees or taxes are applied.

    Now, when I started playing a year and a half ago, prices were sky-high on many items, because of the people who would buy and sell gil to other players. People would simple buy enough gil to outbid other players for something on auction, which would lead to sellers increasing the minimum price they were willing to accept. Inflation was rampant, since there was far more gil pouring into the market then was being taken out of it.

    Then, a couple months ago, Square-Enix decided to up the stakes. They implemented a Special Task Force with the sole duty and purpose of tracking down and removing those people who took part in RMT activity. Many times, the RMTs were also using illegal (by the TOS of the game) third-party programs, such as speed-hacks to move around at a faster speed than normal, bots to repeat an action over and over without someone needing to be at the controls (fishing is a commonly seen use of a bot), or monopolizing certain areas and certain Notorious Monsters to sell the rare items they drop and then sell the gil they get from the sale of that item on auction.

    In the first month after they implemented the Task Force, the ecomony made a DRASTIC change. Suddenly, things that once sold for millions were now selling in the hundreds of thousands. Crystals, which are used to make items, once sold for 3,000-4,000 for a stack of 12. Now, you can buy them for 800-900.

    The Task Force has removed more than 12 BILLION gil from the economy, over all the severs in the game. And I, for one, am very glad to see it. It makes the game more fun, to see that your efforts actually pay off, and not seeing someone running around with all the most expensive gear simply because they bought the gil they used to purchase it (and lemme tell you, it's easy to tell the ones who bought gil, if you've been playing any length of time).

    So, I say that SE did the right thing, in outlawing RMT, and taking steps to enforce that ban. I would be interested in hearing from those who play other MMOs, and whether you think that RMT is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm the kind of guy who would rather work hard, and get the gear by my own efforts, rather than just make a few clicks on a website and have a ton of gil delivered to my character.

  • #2
    I play Guild Wars. Bots are rife in the game - they just farm areas and get as much gear as possible and sell it. Considering that when you buy GW, you get access to the game in perpetuity without a monthly fee, they'll buy accounts and make more from them (usually) unless they get banned before the account is discovered.

    Is it bad for the game? I'd say so - they put more and more money into the game, thus increasing the price of goods - it's not unreasonable to suggest that if the money in the game economy goes up by 50% then prices will rise by a similar amount. New people to the game will have to either buy money or work longer to get the same equipment, unless they can work out how to get it. It puts genuine new players at a disadvantage and devalues the contents of the storage account of the older players.

    Rapscallion
    Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
    Reclaiming words is fun!

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    • #3
      Sometimes if you ask for "Samples" from the spammers in EQ2, they'll just give you free money.
      Cracks me right up.
      They've been improving their tell and mail anti-spam methods though, so that's nice to not get interrupted while you're in the middle of concentrating on killing something difficult.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
        I play Guild Wars. Bots are rife in the game - they just farm areas and get as much gear as possible and sell it. Considering that when you buy GW, you get access to the game in perpetuity without a monthly fee, they'll buy accounts and make more from them (usually) unless they get banned before the account is discovered.

        Is it bad for the game? I'd say so - they put more and more money into the game, thus increasing the price of goods - it's not unreasonable to suggest that if the money in the game economy goes up by 50% then prices will rise by a similar amount. New people to the game will have to either buy money or work longer to get the same equipment, unless they can work out how to get it. It puts genuine new players at a disadvantage and devalues the contents of the storage account of the older players.

        Rapscallion
        I play GW a bit myself, Raps. I have all 4 quests for it. But there's a fundamental difference between the GW economy and the FFXI economy. In GW, people can buy things from other players, but they have to meet that person 'face-to-face' as it were. And the armor in the game is all crafted by NPCs, so that's a big money-sink there, as well as all the various identification kits, salvage kits, etc, that are needed to acquire the best goodies like runes and insignia and the bits and pieces you attach to weapons and armor. In FFXI, players are the ones creating and selling most of the armor, not NPCs. Money shuffles around for a lot longer in FFXI than it possibly can in GW.

        Now, I'm not saying that botting is GW isn't bad. Just that the economy in GW is entirely different from the economy in FFXI, is all.

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        • #5
          Link to a news story about the crash of Second Life's major bank:

          http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?c...59&source=srch

          Hundreds of thousands of real-life dollars were lost.

          The last thing players want is the government regulating their games and the trades they make...so they'd better start being careful and regulating themselves.

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          • #6
            GAH! Don't get me started on FFXI's economy. I was in their shortly after they launched in NA. This was the worst economy I have ever seen. All the best stuff was farmed by bots owned and operated by the money traders.

            They literally controlled the market. They farmed the best stuff and sold it for exorbitant prices. Then they used the gil in their RMT, which was often used to buy the stuff they farmed. What made this worse was that the only real restriction to this stuff to get it was to be first.

            Adding to the problem was Square not actually implementing a system to actually stop the bots. (which I found very odd, as with the PlayOnline frontend, it should have been very simple). I complained several times about bots and RMT only to get a (translated no less) response of "thank you for playing".

            They claim to have accomplished a lot of progress into stopping this (instanced area with great loot, pulling out billions of gil, etc) but the remaining tens of billions are still in the hands of that corrupt market because there was no effort to eliminate the source. Bots are still rampant and any rare loot that is world access (which is still prime gear) is still farmed by RMTs. They still have not removed the bots, and they still have not gone after the accounts behind it in any real matter. I recall an email from them saying they canceled over 5,000 accounts for RMT. That seems to cover maybe one server of the issue.

            Until they implement a solid anti-RMT system and destroy their ability to farm prime gear easily, that market will be the worst I have seen and will always be that way.

            And don't even get me started on Lineage 2. BLEAH!

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            • #7
              I'm not completely against RMT trade. I've played on the Exchange servers on EQ2, and it's an interesting way to play the meta-game. That said, I believe in playing the game the way it's presented to me. Game rules say no RMT? So be it.

              Unregulated RMT (IE, all of these gold-selling / gil-selling businesses) is a blight on the face of modern MMOs. It causes inflation, overfarming of resources, and harrassment of players (via tells/in-game mail advertisements for the company). It does not benefit the game maker's company in any significant way, and it does not benefit Joe Average Gamer in any significant way. Most of these people have little or no respect for the rules of the game, and break many, many others (especially with regard to botting or outright hacking) in the pursuit of the almighty buck. If they're going to break one rule, what's a few more?

              I honestly think that the best solution is exactly what Sony implemented with the Exchange servers - have RMT-allowed servers be separate from the rest of the servers, and regulate the RMT. The majority of the people who are interested in buying or selling in-game assets with real-world cash will gravitate toward these servers, resulting in there being little or no market on the rest of the servers for RMT "businesses."
              Last edited by Nekojin; 04-14-2008, 09:49 PM. Reason: Expanding my position a bit

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              • #8
                I play WoW. I can't speak for other games or even any servers other than my own, but I've never had a problem with gold farmers or RMT. The items we have that are inflated are inflated because of actual players manipulating the auction system, not because of gold farmers. And since the expansion, it is ridiculously easy for someone to obtain massive amounts of gold without the help of farmers.


                Most of the items we have in WoW bind on pickup, meaning they are bound to whoever loots them. There are certain items you can get by spending gold to level a profession, or from giving gold to a group to help you kill a monster, but for the most part gold just buys you faster transportation or pays for repairing your equipment. The really good stuff comes from going out and killing stuff with your friends.


                Everyone I know who bought gold did so because they had busy real lives and would rather spend an hour or two at their job farming money than 30 hours in game farming gold, and I certainly don't have a problem with it. It doesn't affect me if someone gets a mount or a new weapon two weeks earlier than they would if they had obtained it solely in-game.


                Also I feel that Blizzard has encouraged RMT in some degree with the introduction of loot cards in the trading card game.

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                • #9
                  In my opinion the reason that such farming is prevalent in MMOs is that the developers gave the players too much protection from others players. In WoW you never actually lose all that uber gear if you die. Eve Online, you do lose things but most farmers sit in secure space protected by Concord. I am awaiting Darkfall Online to come out, complete pvp and no protection in farming areas and that and you can lose your gear at a whim of another player or Clan. The other aspect of MMOs is too much emphasis on gear where its the priority, where as in DFO will not be focused on gear.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darrien View Post
                    I am awaiting Darkfall Online to come out, complete pvp and no protection in farming areas and that and you can lose your gear at a whim of another player or Clan. The other aspect of MMOs is too much emphasis on gear where its the priority, where as in DFO will not be focused on gear.
                    You will never see me playing any game with a PvP system where a bully (read: someone attacking players who have no real chance of beating him) can take things from the people he's killing. And I'm fairly certain that the majority of the MMO market feels the same way. It's fun when you're the one doing the bullying. It stops being fun when you run into other bullies. Many of the would-be bullies will quit once they've been taken out one too many times.

                    If Darkfall actually goes through with this, you can expect it to be a niche game with an audience smaller than EVE Online. And, ironically, that's one of the best defenses against gold-sellers: Have too small of an audience to make it profitable.

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                    • #11
                      Oh this is a topic I can get on board with. I play City of Heroes/Villains. Early in the game there was a very limited economy, very much set up by the Developers. Influence (Heroes) and Infamy (Villains) could only be used to purchase Enhancements for your powers and Costume changes (You could also purchase Inspirations, one time boosts for damage, defense, accuracy, ect. But I don't think anyone buys them unless absolutely necessary since they drop, at higher tiers, for free.) So there were Gold Farmers in CoH/V sure, but they weren't very vocal.

                      Then came the Auction House...and the Invention System.

                      Suddenly there was a player based economy, and goods that could not simply be bought at an NPC store. Suddenly funds were being funneled back and forth between players for goods of intermediate value. At first it was, well, horrible... On Heroes at least. Since Heroes had been out so much longer than Villains, there were a TON of level 50 Heroes that had pretty much been soaking up Influence since peaking since at that point you don't need to BUY anything anymore... The first few months the economy was skewed as higher leveled characters dumped their grandiose fortunes into the special Invention Costume pieces, ensuring that new characters would never get their wings, rocket boots, or whatever...

                      But then things settled. The money leveled off (sort of) and the money that had been simply sitting around picking it's nose by those level 50s was getting used. Sure the system still favors the higher leveled since it's easier for them to rake in the dough, but the system also made it easier for lower leveled characters to pick up some scratch since they could now sell whatever rare items they picked up, and wouldn't HAVE to rely on a higher leveled buddy to shoot them a loan when they wanted the next tier Enhancement.

                      But all was not well, we had a working economy now, money actually had value. And thus came...The Farmers. Like I mentioned before Farmers for CoH/V were around before but never advertised openly in game... That had changed. Suddenly every character was getting spammed with Gold Sales. NCSoft has done a great deal to try and get rid of these dips.

                      First they implemented the /Ignore_Spammer command. When you type that in, followed by the Farmers character name, you instantly ignore them on a global level (IE all their characters) and their global name is sent to the Mods who will then, supposedly, ban them if they get enough hits.

                      When the Spammers stopped using /Tells (/Whispers) and started using E-Mails (infinitely harder to report them for that since their names were usually 'gklrg7IiLl" and that is a pain to type) they made it so that any character below the level of 10 could not use E-Mails. This was done since most spammers were simply using low level characters on free trials to advertise, since they didn't want their high level farming character permabaned.

                      This did not go over well, I personally know 3 people who used in game E-Mails, but still...Limiting E-Mails to 10 and above was kinda not necessary. So they instead included a "Spam" button to the E-Mail client, which will do the same as /Ignore_Spammer auto block them and send a message to the big guys.

                      But yet again these Spammers just don't seem to understand they're not WANTED, since now every time I click that spam button it tells me the Global name in question doesn't exist, and therefor cannot be ignored. They're deleting their accounts before anything can be done now.


                      But all in all, I don't mind gold farmers... I don't. As long as you're not advertising in game... The Gold Farming in CoH, while annoying doesn't effect the economy. I think if there's the casual gamer who just can't find a way to get enough shineys to buy that Black Halberd of the Underdark, and he wants to slap down a 20 to someone to pick it up for him? Whatever.

                      I do believe there is a limit though, sites offering full powerleveling to top level, all the best gear...Thats just sad. Play the damn game yourself.


                      ...Uh... /End Rant

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Will-Mun View Post
                        But yet again these Spammers just don't seem to understand they're not WANTED, since now every time I click that spam button it tells me the Global name in question doesn't exist, and therefor cannot be ignored. They're deleting their accounts before anything can be done now.
                        Actually, a slight correction. They aren't deleting the accounts, but the characters. Since in-game emails are tracked by character, not account, this has the effect we see.


                        But all in all, I don't mind gold farmers... I don't. As long as you're not advertising in game... The Gold Farming in CoH, while annoying doesn't effect the economy. I think if there's the casual gamer who just can't find a way to get enough shineys to buy that Black Halberd of the Underdark, and he wants to slap down a 20 to someone to pick it up for him? Whatever.
                        This I completely disagree with. The gold sellers always have an effect on the game, even if they don't advertise in game. Not to mention being in direct violation of the EULA we all agree to every time we start the game up.
                        "Never confuse the faith with the so-called faithful." -- Cartoonist R.K. Milholland's father.
                        A truer statement has never been spoken about any religion.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Will-Mun View Post
                          When the Spammers stopped using /Tells (/Whispers) and started using E-Mails (infinitely harder to report them for that since their names were usually 'gklrg7IiLl" and that is a pain to type) they made it so that any character below the level of 10 could not use E-Mails. This was done since most spammers were simply using low level characters on free trials to advertise, since they didn't want their high level farming character permabaned.
                          That's similar to what we had to do here and on CS, with the whole moderation of posts. But then they started to spam thru PMs, so we had to take that capability away from new users as well. I don't know how many PM spams we've prevented that way, but the number of people who wanted to spam the board lately is unbelievable. The ban list is starting to look like a novel.
                          --- I want the republicans out of my bedroom, the democrats out of my wallet, and both out of my first and second amendment rights. Whether you are part of the anal-retentive overly politically-correct left, or the bible-thumping bellowing right, get out of the thought control business --- Alan Nathan

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Arcade Man D View Post
                            Actually, a slight correction. They aren't deleting the accounts, but the characters. Since in-game emails are tracked by character, not account, this has the effect we see.
                            I've actually been taking a close look at what's been blocked with the spam report in the game. The global is being blocked, which means the account is being deleted.

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