Avatar and why I like it!

[Hobbs]

First, The Catholic church, like all churches, influence their members in how they vote... Catholics (along with most conservative Christians) vote against any politician that will even admit that gays and lesbians are decent people and not sexual deviants.
And yes, gays and lesbians serve... but they are not permitted to serve honorably. They are told they must be liars or get the fuck out.

It's not a lie if you don't say it.

I've never been told in Church how to vote, and I know many Catholics who don't vote the way you say they do. Catholics are far from Conservative Christians (are actually despised by the more extreme ones).

[smileyeagle1021]

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with US DoD policy. The Catholic chaplain made that perfectly clear during one of my many briefings. You could serve in the Armed Forces if you wanted to, as many of your gay brothers and sisters do; but you choose to keep your hate.

First, The Catholic church, like all churches, influence their members in how they vote... Catholics (along with most conservative Christians) vote against any politician that will even admit that gays and lesbians are decent people and not sexual deviants.
And yes, gays and lesbians serve... but they are not permitted to serve honorably. They are told they must be liars or get the fuck out.

[Hobbs]

No, his country didn't kill his brother, but he didn't betray his country, he betrayed "his people" or his society, and his society produced the person who did kill his brother. He was injured in combat, it's not a life saving procedure, but still one that many would say a country should provide for their wounded soldiers if it is possible. His people valued his service so little they wouldn't perform a simple surgery in repayment for him risking his life to protect theirs.

And, yes, you do serve your country honorably as a Catholic, my country won't let me serve honorably as a gay man. And, if I may be blunt, it is partly because of the Catholic church that it will be a long time before I would be able to serve my country as a gay man.

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with US DoD policy. The Catholic chaplain made that perfectly clear during one of my many briefings. You could serve in the Armed Forces if you wanted to, as many of your gay brothers and sisters do; but you choose to keep your hate. You chose the words "...betray my country..." which is why I assumed you meant his country betraying him and not his society.

The movies presents a dystopia from our current society; a fall from what we are, considering that his healthcare doesn't seem to par with ours.

Can you please provide citation for your claim about the concentration camps? The only ones I find point to the German government, and not the US, as the ones who did that.

[smileyeagle1021]

His country didn't kill his brother, and I don't think that the government is responsible for making a hospital do any type of non-lifesaving surgery. He just didn't have the money for it (which makes me think that, somewhere along the line, the new healthcare bill was squashed).

Nazi's killed Catholics and at one point, my people were exterminated/disenfranchised, but I serve my country proudly.

No, his country didn't kill his brother, but he didn't betray his country, he betrayed "his people" or his society, and his society produced the person who did kill his brother. He was injured in combat, it's not a life saving procedure, but still one that many would say a country should provide for their wounded soldiers if it is possible. His people valued his service so little they wouldn't perform a simple surgery in repayment for him risking his life to protect theirs.

And, yes, you do serve your country honorably as a Catholic, my country won't let me serve honorably as a gay man. And, if I may be blunt, it is partly because of the Catholic church that it will be a long time before I would be able to serve my country as a gay man.

[Plaidman]

Oh belive me. Batman has thought of it. One comic had a three page spread just exactly how he would torture Joker before maybe letting him die over a period of WEEKS. Not days, weeks.

He nearly did when he thought Joker killed Thomas Elliot, but Gordon stopped him. Despite all the shit Joker did, Gordon wouldn't let Batman become a murderer, because he'd then have to put every bit of manpower to get him.

When Gordon's second wife was murdered by Joker, Batman was about to stop Gordon from killing Joker. Gordon instead shot Joker in the leg. Joker shouting he was going to sue, when he got the joke. (Joker had years earlier paralized Gordon's daughter).

When Jason Todd was murdered by Joker, Batman wanted to kill him. Guess who stoped him? Superman. Looked like Joker became a freaking ambassor to the Ayatollah, and thus had freaking dipomatic immuntiy. The USA couldn't afford Batman beating Joker to death and maybe cause a war.

And yes, Barbara even pleaded with Robin and Batman. She wasn't asking them to kill all villians and such. Just Joker. Just the Joker. Nether had an answer.

When Nightwing beat Joker to death because he thought Joker killed Batman, it was Batman who came out of nowhere and revive Joker so that Nightwing wouldn't have blood on his hands.

Hell, in one comic, Joker got shot and was bleeding to death, and Batman had to rescue him, despite Gordon's pleas to let him bleed to death. Nether of them were the ones that shot him, they just wouldn't save him. Batman couldn't, because he did let Joker become bait to catch another villain, and thus that bullet was due to Batman's actions.


Anyway, the real reason no-one kills Joker? Because its been done. Joker has been killed before, and that led quite the freaking riot and world destruction as shown in Kingdom Come.

The real answer? Joker is just too cool a villain to let die.


Plaidman will retreat back to his nerd cage. Sorry.

[Hobbs]

Batman doesn't kill...well, he does in Burton's version, but not in others. In fact, in the best adaptation of the franchise (imo), Batman Beyond, Bruce Wayne gives up the suit when he resorts to using a gun on a bad guy.

Some movies though, are meant (and do) teach good philosophical arguments and/or morality. Even Gene Roddenberry admitted that, as entertaining as Star Trek is, it is also a morality play; just set in space.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I like action flicks, you know that the heroes are going to end up shooting all the bad guys, it's just a matter of how they go about managing it

That said, while I do give credit where it's due (good storyline, special effects, and firearm continuity etc.) I don't pretend that a movie whose sole purpose is to entertain is somehow a marvelous philosophical lesson on current events and morality. That's what gets me about most all fanboys/girls of anything. There's a fine line between appreciation and fanboyish worship and all too many people piss all over that line when it comes to Avatar.

P.S. I always found it odd that Batman would bring whomever had escaped Arkham when they'd escaped before and likely would again later. Once someone has proven beyond all doubt that they pose a threat to everyone around them it's time to just off the fucker before more people get hurt. The moral high-ground doesn't mean much to the dead. *shrug*

[Plaidman]

I like chase movies. It's like Batman and Joker. You know that Joker is going to kill a bunch of people. You know that Batman is going to beat Joker up and bring him back to Arkham.

You just don't know how high the body count will be before it's over.

[Hobbs]

The thing about predictable story lines is that knowing how it ends doesn't spoil the ride. Some of the best murder mystery shows I've seen have seen show you the crime up front and show you the killer's face. You already know how it's going to end and who did it, but it's still fun to see the chase.
You knew that Jake would end up joining the Navi and fighting the humans (which as a side note, this wasn't a humans bad/nature good story, if anything it's a morality tale on what happens when a smaller group is forced to move to serve the needs of the larger group, not that it isn't a predictable archetype either).
The one complaint about complaints that I have the biggest problem with is the people who say that it took far too little for Jake to betray his people. As someone who would have no qualms betraying my country (this is the country after all that at the end of world war 2 liberated the concentration camps and moved anyone with a pink triangle into new prisons to finish out their rightfully imposed terms and tells me on a daily basis that because of my orientation and lack of belief in Christianity that I am inherently an inferior citizen), I can fully understand what would cause Jake to turn.
He was already betrayed by his people. He was injured in battle defending his country and his country refused to provide him the surgery to make him whole again. His brother was gunned down for a few pieces of paper. To top it off, his people were asking him to do something that he knew to be wrong. The Navi on the other hand were willing to accept him in as part of their tribe, they were above killing each other over something so trivial as money, they took care of their own. Yes, they left him to die after they found out what his original mission was, but if I was in Jake's position, I would expect no less, I would expect that I would have to re-earn their trust.
Never underestimate how easy it is for one who has been betrayed to turn betrayer.

His country didn't kill his brother, and I don't think that the government is responsible for making a hospital do any type of non-lifesaving surgery. He just didn't have the money for it (which makes me think that, somewhere along the line, the new healthcare bill was squashed).

Nazi's killed Catholics and at one point, my people were exterminated/disenfranchised, but I serve my country proudly.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I still don't like it; you're not about to convince me otherwise. But then, I probably like several movies that people here think are pants. We all have our own opinions, after all. ^^

[smileyeagle1021]

The worst was because of how predictable the story line was, a story that is not original at all (over done many times - and before in much better ways), etc..

The thing about predictable story lines is that knowing how it ends doesn't spoil the ride. Some of the best murder mystery shows I've seen have seen show you the crime up front and show you the killer's face. You already know how it's going to end and who did it, but it's still fun to see the chase.
You knew that Jake would end up joining the Navi and fighting the humans (which as a side note, this wasn't a humans bad/nature good story, if anything it's a morality tale on what happens when a smaller group is forced to move to serve the needs of the larger group, not that it isn't a predictable archetype either).
The one complaint about complaints that I have the biggest problem with is the people who say that it took far too little for Jake to betray his people. As someone who would have no qualms betraying my country (this is the country after all that at the end of world war 2 liberated the concentration camps and moved anyone with a pink triangle into new prisons to finish out their rightfully imposed terms and tells me on a daily basis that because of my orientation and lack of belief in Christianity that I am inherently an inferior citizen), I can fully understand what would cause Jake to turn.
He was already betrayed by his people. He was injured in battle defending his country and his country refused to provide him the surgery to make him whole again. His brother was gunned down for a few pieces of paper. To top it off, his people were asking him to do something that he knew to be wrong. The Navi on the other hand were willing to accept him in as part of their tribe, they were above killing each other over something so trivial as money, they took care of their own. Yes, they left him to die after they found out what his original mission was, but if I was in Jake's position, I would expect no less, I would expect that I would have to re-earn their trust.
Never underestimate how easy it is for one who has been betrayed to turn betrayer.

[Hobbs]

Nice addition, Muses. I'm surprised at how well this thread has gone, considering I pretty much abandoned it.

Anywho, she's right. A cliche is a saying, expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype.

In retrospect, an archetype is a model or abstract that is copied or emulated. It's usually a "perfect" example of a character.

Jake is several archetypes, really. ERm, I can't remember the 'names' of them, correctly, but he's been portrayed, as Muses' quote pointed out, in many movies as well as books.

[muses_nightmare]

I just came across this from a blog my friend has started writing for recently, it's part of a review for Avatar, and I think it sums up my opinion of the storyline:

The story is not cliché, as many have written it off as. It is an archetype. The one is often mistaken for the other, even by folks who know what they're talking about. You can see this archetype employed in many, many stories, including 'Pocahontas', 'Dances with Wolves', 'District 9', 'The Last Samurai', 'Total Recall', several Disney animated films, and even in the biblical story of 'Moses'.

http://trenchcoatanticritic.blogspot.com

Just a thought.

[Talon]

If I want a movie with the same (or extremely similar) story, I'll go watch "Dances With Wolves", "The New World", "Apacolypto", or "Pathfinder".

Don't forget Princess Mononoke, which avoided the mistake of black & white humans=bad, nature=good.

[draggar]

Avatar was the best and worst movie I've seen in a very long time. I won't deny it's success - it's grossed what, over 2 billion worldwide so far?

The best is purely on the special effects, CGI, 3D addition, etc. Yeah, all that was incrdible to watch (in iMAX I thought it was "too much" though).

The worst was because of how predictable the story line was, a story that is not original at all (over done many times - and before in much better ways), etc..

If want to see special effects, I'll watch this.

If I want a movie with the same (or extremely similar) story, I'll go watch "Dances With Wolves", "The New World", "Apacolypto", or "Pathfinder".

I feel the same way with "Pearl Harbor" and "Tora! Tora! Tora!"