Why does race matter?

[Mytical]

Well I am not sure I buy that race is not important. For instance, the lone ranger wouldn't seem right if Native American or chinese. Batman really wouldn't be the same if Irish or Scottish..

Could you imagine Kato (from Green Hornet) as Indian (from India)?

[Ginger Tea]

Do you mean if Batman was Scottish in Scotland? Elseworlds did True Brit a what if Kal El crashed in England, granted it was a one off mini series and just like Red Son (a longer more involved story), it took a well known man and back story and just changed his outlook on life by landing an hour earlier or later than the normal universes one.

Although alot of our writers work for big name US publishers, our non Marvel UK comics growing up were the likes of the Dandy, Beano, Eagle (Dan Dare) and 2000AD (Judge Dredd) and News Agents didn't stock US comics, you had to go to speciality shops for them, but we knew of the core superheroes and had the TV shows.

If batman was less well known over here and someone DID decide to (with or without permission) reboot him into a Scottish Lord in any given time line, it could work, it is all down to the writer making it believable.

When I first read the OP, I read it as they were casting a white man as MLK and all thoguh that was just a hypothetical example, I don't think a white MLK in reality would have done anything for the civil rights movement, or atleast towards progressing it, so that is one reason why keeping some closer to the source material.

Lethal Weapon would be less beliveable a buddy cop movie if set around that time line, although if a good enough writer was behind it at the time, and hollywood willing to go on a limb, perhaps it could have gone on to do great things.
Making that movie now but still set then, the impact would be lost as the audience is more tollerant.

Back to BSG, I had not seen a single episode till I borrowed the guy upstairs box set of 1-3 and 4 was airing, but I knew of the backlash, TBH it mattered little to me as Apollo and Starbucks were both friends and just cos of the gender swap, there were never any real worries of them getting it on long term, iir there was some history between them and the odd fuck might have happened.
Boomer, I had not watched the original for so long that when I saw the new boomer I didn't care that she was a woman, nor that she was one of the 12, it was a new story based off the old ones premis not a continuation of it, that I think is something many failed to get when bitching about Starbuck.
If the first episode had a MiB ToS wiper in the broadcast feed, no one would remember the original to complain that they did this wrong or not.

[Mytical]

True, I will admit if the character is not really well known, that yes race has no part in it. Once established, however, that is not the case. Rebooting/rewriting history is all fine and good, but often it just makes the beloved character something of a mishmash. Zorro wouldn't be right if he was Australian. Dracula would not be the same if he was African. So yes, sometimes race does matter.

[Ginger Tea]

East original vs West remakes also, Asian ghost stories are vastly different to what we have over here, so what made Grudge and Ring scary were the established mythos of the nation, translated to western audiences, well "Ghost's don't work that way!" springs to mind, at least with the remake of Grudge they kept the first one in Japan.

An African based Vampire movie could be pulled off, but it would never be a remake of the Stoker tale as, well name me one castle in any part of Africa, probably the closest we'll ever get is "Blacula".

I recently watched Stake Land a post vampire appocolypse movie, TBH unlike Daybreaker, the vamp's came off more like zombies with the weakness of Vamp's than anything else, failing to get the basics of a myth right when it is a western myth is worse than fucking up a myth you know little of.

I'm not sure if the west could watch a 'straight' horror movie where the vamps are portrayed as the more traditional Chineese Vampire, a spoof hell yes.

[fireheart17]

There's a version of Alice in Wonderland where the Cheshire cat is female; which has absolutely no effect on the story at all, but to change some pronouns.

^-.-^

Is that the one with Whoopi Goldberg or is that Miyuki-Chan in Wonderland?

And as for the race/sex whatever issue, the only time I could see sex being an issue was in the English dub of Sailor Moon. I'm not talking about the DIC dub either, I'm talking about the Cloverway dub. There were three characters in the WHOLE series who wound up getting a gender change. They were Zoycite/Zoisite, Fish Eye and Zirconia. Now, Zoycite/Zoisite I can understand, since you wouldn't really catch a lot of guys cross-dressing as Sailor Moon (yes, he/she actually does do that) and also her relationship with Kunzite/Malachite.

Fish Eye I can sorta understand, since he/she cross-dresses a LOT.

The one I don't understand however, and this actually ruined the plot big time? Zirconia was made into a man. It was already female. And worse still, he/she sounded like YODA. The reason why it ruined the plot? IN the original dub, Zirconia was the "old woman" form of Queen Nehellenia, who wanted to stay young forever or something like that. Zirconia was meant to find the golden dream mirror, which would keep her young forever. In the ENGLISH dub, it's changed to Zirconia being a generic male villain.

Oh and on the subject of the Cloverway dubs, there WAS another gender change, due to the character in question wearing women's clothing for a good chunk of hte episode, but what made it worse, was that said character sounded like a 40-year-old hooker. O.o

[SkullKing]

Actually it's very rare that race does actually have anything to do with it. In truth Constantine should be English but his skin color has little to do with the character.

And your comment about Aladdin actually kind of proves my point. See the Aladdin tale while being a middle eastern tale was of a Chinese boy in a Chinese town.

Obviously his race didn't matter if people are just as good with the story with him being Arabic.

Many of constantines stories(specially earlier ones) involve some sort of supremacist groups, and the racial tension in london was a important point.

It was important that he was a white person, that stepped in to defend people of other races, even when it could bring trouble to himself.

The character is also very British, so yeah I would give preference to Caucasian over a non-Caucasian, and to a British, over a non-British, unless the Caucasian non-British had a very good British accent.

Aladdin, may have happened in a theoretical Chinese city, but it is still a very Arabic tale, and the chinese city has the characteristics of a middle eastern one.

It was as if I wanted to write a story and decided to have it happen in another country to make it "exotic", but didn´t do any research on the other country and wrote it as if the other country was just like my own with a different name, and the characters had names common in my country not the other one.

Maybe slipping a few thing here and there that I heard about the foreign country just to make it sound "exotic"

So I stand by my opinion, I would prefer an eastern actor over a western one, And I would prefer an Arabic one over a Chinese.

[jackfaire]

I recently watched Stake Land a post vampire appocolypse movie, TBH unlike Daybreaker, the vamp's came off more like zombies with the weakness of Vamp's than anything else, failing to get the basics of a myth right when it is a western myth is worse than fucking up a myth you know little of.

Bram Stoker didn't invent Vampires. In fact every culture has some version of vampires. The vampires that are more like zombies with the weakness of a Vamp's is actually the case in some parts of the world.

It sounds like they weren't basing their Vamps off of Stokers versions.

[Ginger Tea]

Granted Vamps are old as the hills and hollywood has over romaticised thier image, but given we have generic zombies, why not make it a sodding zombie movie and be done with it?
I would be more fogiving of the movie if the vamps acted like Chineese Vampires with all the hopping and everything involved, or another more well known flavour.

I'm not expecting another Near Dark or Lost Boys, but given that they acted like mindless zombies out for flesh, they should have been listed as such.
As a Vampire movie it sucked, as a Zombie one, it was about average for post appocolypse survival genre, the fact it wasn't "found footage" makes it a better movie than Survival of the Dead and their ilk.

[crashhelmet]

This swerve into Vampires has me wondering about why all the hatred for the Twilight Vampires simply because they "sparkle." Why is it that White Wolf and others can create different "breeds" of vampires, but the Twilight ones get bashed for not being your stereotypical Bela Lugosi, Grampaw Munster, Halloween Costume Vampire?

[Gravekeeper]

This swerve into Vampires has me wondering about why all the hatred for the Twilight Vampires simply because they "sparkle." Why is it that White Wolf and others can create different "breeds" of vampires, but the Twilight ones get bashed for not being your stereotypical Bela Lugosi, Grampaw Munster, Halloween Costume Vampire?

1) Because it was handled and written in such a shitty manner in such an awful story.

2) Because Twilight vampire's essentially bear no resemblance whatsoever to vampires. Reinventing vampires with new twists is one thing. Pulling something out of your ass and slapping "Vampire" on it to appeal to emo teens is another.

Its not just that they "sparkle". They were also vegetarians. They had no classic vampire goals or behaviours. Nor any of their powers beyond just being stronger. They weren't reinventions, they were something Myer pulled out of her ass than slapped "vampire" on afterwards to make them cool. Then as an added insult, made them sulky, spineless pretty boys that illogically act like 13 year olds despite their true age.

For the most part they were just pale immortals acting like junior high students. Its like "reinventing" werewolves into posh British people who don't turn into anything, they're just really hairy, full moons don't do anything to them and they only eat tofu.

[crashhelmet]

1) Because it was handled and written in such a shitty manner in such an awful story.

2) Because Twilight vampire's essentially bear no resemblance whatsoever to vampires. Reinventing vampires with new twists is one thing. Pulling something out of your ass and slapping "Vampire" on it to appeal to emo teens is another.

Its not just that they "sparkle". They were also vegetarians. They had no classic vampire goals or behaviours. Nor any of their powers beyond just being stronger. They weren't reinventions, they were something Myer pulled out of her ass than slapped "vampire" on afterwards to make them cool. Then as an added insult, made them sulky, spineless pretty boys that illogically act like 13 year olds despite their true age.

For the most part they were just pale immortals acting like junior high students. Its like "reinventing" werewolves into posh British people who don't turn into anything, they're just really hairy, full moons don't do anything to them and they only eat tofu.

Point 1 has nothing to do with my questions. Yes, there is hatred alone for her writing, or lack there of.

For Point 2, again, why is it that someone else can invent a new species of vampire, but this one is mocked and it's mocked because it's not the classic Count Dracula type vampire. White Wolf and the V:TM series has multiple distinctly different types of vampires. As does the Dresden Files and other series from other writers.

This was a small group of those within the Vampire world that chose to exist with a conscience. They chose to be among their expected prey in peace. Why is it that White Wolf can have their "masquerade," but not the Twilight universe?

Not every vampire in the series was "good." But people went apeshit because they sparkled in the sun instead of burned up.

Is this any different than attacking someone for not being stereotypical of their race?

[Gravekeeper]

For Point 2, again, why is it that someone else can invent a new species of vampire, but this one is mocked and it's mocked because it's not the classic Count Dracula type vampire. White Wolf and the V:TM series has multiple distinctly different types of vampires. As does the Dresden Files and other series from other writers.

Its mocked because it is stupid and poorly written. Twilight vampires have *none* of the traditional weaknesses. None. In fact they have effectively have no weaknesses whatsoever. They are essentially invincable and possess speed and strength literally on par with Superman. They have no fangs either. Toss in the fact they don't drink human blood ( and don't need blood to survive, its just a perk ) and literally call themselves vetegerians.

People hate it not because she made a new kind of vampire, but because what she made is *idiotic* and on par with a 12 year old's fanfic. She made emo pretty boy versions of Superman that wax their chests and called them vampires. Even though they don't actually need to drink blood to survive. The vampires she made are straight up Mary Sue wish fullfillment. They are invincable, super hawt, immortal, super strong, super fast, super everything without any real downside or flaws that would make them remotely interesting.

Comparing it to the intricacie sof The Masquerade is straight up insulting to White Wolf.

Is this any different than attacking someone for not being stereotypical of their race?

Sorry, but that is an idiotic comparison. We're talking about fiction here. Its utterly different and comparing it to racism is both stupid and almost kind of offensive.

[crashhelmet]

Its mocked because it is stupid and poorly written.

Again, I'm NOT defending how poorly written the books are.

Twilight vampires have *none* of the traditional weaknesses. None. In fact they have effectively have no weaknesses whatsoever. They are essentially invincable and possess speed and strength literally on par with Superman. They have no fangs either.

There are fangless vampires in other universes (Poppy Z. Brite novels, for instance) just as there are vampires with an entire mouth full of fangs, or multiple sets of teeth.

Toss in the fact they don't drink human blood ( and don't need blood to survive, its just a perk ) and literally call themselves vetegerians.

Again, not every vampire in the series is a "vegetarian" and yes, they still do need blood to survive. In the White Wolf universe, there are vampires that choose to live off of animals as well.

People hate it not because she made a new kind of vampire, but because what she made is *idiotic* and on par with a 12 year old's fanfic. She made emo pretty boy versions of Superman that wax their chests and called them vampires. Even though they don't actually need to drink blood to survive. The vampires she made are straight up Mary Sue wish fullfillment. They are invincable, super hawt, immortal, super strong, super fast, super everything without any real downside or flaws that would make them remotely interesting.

They're anything but your standard emo characters. Lost Souls by Poppy Z. Brite, now THAT was emo vampires. Anne Rice came closer to it than Stephanie Meyer did.

Comparing it to the intricacie sof The Masquerade is straight up insulting to White Wolf.

Fundamentally, how is it different? They pass themselves off as human so they're not discovered. So that they can survive. Some choose to feed off of them, some do not.

Sorry, but that is an idiotic comparison. We're talking about fiction here. Its utterly different and comparing it to racism is both stupid and almost kind of offensive.

So racism is permissible as long as it's against fictional beings? As I've pointed out, you're attacking a small sect within the entire species in that universe for not being like the rest of them.

[Mytical]

Well, vampires HAVE come in many styles over the years. The sun/cross/holy water/garlic fearing type is pretty new in fact (compared). Some drink blood, others needed other things to survive. Some were interesting, some were not.

Which is why I do not like Twilight. As somebody said (in different words)..it is not because they are different then 'traditional' vampires..it is because they are Deux Ex Machina. Which to me is boring. I mean even Lestat, in one of my favorite vampire stories of all time, was a bit boring. He COULD die, it was just almost near impossible. To me .. very yawn worthy. So I do not like Twilight. Don't hate it, just am apathetic toward it.

The fact that they sparkle in the sunlight means zero to me. If done right, they could glow neon pink in darkness for all I care. They just have to be interesting.

[Gravekeeper]

Again, I'm NOT defending how poorly written the books are.

But poorly written is the entire problem with Twilight vampires. Writing something thats super awesome invincable in every concievable way is boring and poor writing. No one gives a shit about people coming up with new kinds of vampires or werewolves or whatever. But when you change or remove everything that identifies it as a vampire to begin with, including the downsides, then you're a shitty writer.

Again, the problem isn't inventing new kinds of vampires, its doing a shitty job of it.

There are fangless vampires in other universes (Poppy Z. Brite novels, for instance) just as there are vampires with an entire mouth full of fangs, or multiple sets of teeth.

Its not any one thing, its all of them combined - the downsides.

Again, not every vampire in the series is a "vegetarian" and yes, they still do need blood to survive. In the White Wolf universe, there are vampires that choose to live off of animals as well.

No, they don't need blood to live. It gives them power and keeps their brains sharp or something. But they don't *need* it.

They're anything but your standard emo characters. Lost Souls by Poppy Z. Brite, now THAT was emo vampires. Anne Rice came closer to it than Stephanie Meyer did.

For someone claiming to not be defending the poor writing, you're doing nothing but defending the poor writing. Twilight characters are paper thin schlock and Edward practically defines emo.

Fundamentally, how is it different? They pass themselves off as human so they're not discovered. So that they can survive. Some choose to feed off of them, some do not.

Its very different. The Masquerade is rather intricate and basically encompasses every classical and modern ideal of a vampire in some way. But they are still vampires, still need blood, still have flaws and weaknesses that come with their curse to make them interesting. The whole of the Masquerade is a set of laws that binds them into secrecy.

Only young vampires in the Masquerade can subsist off animals, but it is a poor substitute ( you need twice as much animal blood ) and looked down upon like eating out of a trash bin.

So racism is permissible as long as it's against fictional beings? As I've pointed out, you're attacking a small sect within the entire species in that universe for not being like the rest of them.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. That is the most absurd thing I have heard in weeks. You're accusing me of racism against fictional characters because I'm criticizing how badly written they are?

Seriously?