GamerGate WTF?

[Rageaholic]

Sorry I'm late to this.

Most of what I've been seeing out of both of you and GK is 'they're still indefensible assholes' while at least one or two people have pretty much said 'yeah, I still don't feel comfortable saying if I'm for or against them, but at least I understand why one of their detractors isn't helping matters at all.' And as much as the argument with GK is doing wonders for both my temper and my blood pressure at this point, at least he's responding to at least some of the counterpoints I've given. The only thing I've seen from you once I posted my thoughts on this is 'yeah, fuck this zombie.'

In fact, the closest thing I've seen to a neutral response to the issue over the past months' worth of posts in this thread got met with a reaction of 'yeah, you're still a fuckface for supporting them.' The logic behind it? 'Well, if Sarkeesian and Quinn were guys, you'd have never even heard of them.' Yeah, let's continue making assumptions on what someone's reaction would be to an issue if the genders were flipped, yet claim to be the reasonable ones. That'll win points in the long run...

This is the problem I have with some of the anti GGers. You can make it crystal clear that you don't support the harassment or that you're not even part of GG, but are still labeled as all those things if you even say "yeah, I understand why they're pissed". I despise this, and I've been seeing it a lot lately. Someone who doesn't support one side 100% is treated as if they're some kind of apologist for the worst of the other side.

With that said, I think this makes a good point. As someone who occassionally gets crap for liking cheesy action and comedy movies over the heavy drama stuff, I can relate to this. I can understand why people wouldn't be drawn to artsy games (especially if the gameplay isn't very good). And dismissing critics as bigots just because they don't like games that happen to deal with certain social issues is absolute bullshit. I should repeat, this does not even come close to justifying the horrific harassment of Sarkeesian and Quinn. Nor does it justify homophobia or misogyny. But that doesn't make it any less bullshit when people say that not liking a video game makes someone a bigot. Especially if they're being banned for discussing it.

[FArchivist]

All that one really needs to know:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Gamergate

[ZedOmega]

It's obvious that people don't really care about ethics in gaming journalism or it would have reached critical mass on it's own. That it took a smokescreen by a crew of assholes to make anything happen is just proof that nobody really cares except as it can further their agendas. Particularly notable in the fact that since the vast majority of everybody understands that GG is about misogyny, the whole ethics fight has lost all visibility once more.

This might surprise you, but it took months for a member of the SPJ to start showing interest in the entire mess. Their Florida offices have been setting up an event so that both sides can air their grievances directly to the SPJ.. The pro side of things is split between 'thanks for hearing us out' and 'it's not even worth it; the antis flat-out refused to show and are demanding that nobody pay any attention to it, but Michael Koretsky's offer still stands for them.

What does it say that almost a year later, the one thing that could potentially end this entire mess is being avoided like the plague by the one side that wants to see it end? (Other than 'this is going to be a clusterfuck one way or the other, might as well stock up on popcorn just in case?)

Unlike the assholes of GG, the EGJ crew really is small and fringe. For Doritosgate, people cared for a whole month and then it was on to the next thing.

Much like they did for any other major news story at the time.

Also, your comment about Nintendo Power burns in how utterly nonsensical it is.

That's why I said that peoples' opinions on it are going to vary. I laughed at the idea the first time I heard about it, simply because Nintendo Power was a combination of game previews/reviews, strategy guides and some decent comics. Of course, it was also the 80s/90s and a good number of people that've been gaming since childhood could honestly care less because WOO FINAL FANTASY III!

Or do you think that Macworld needs to cover Windows products, and Cat Fancy should include information on dogs, and Parents Magazine should include articles aimed at bachelors?

*snerks* I've seen stranger claims on Tumblr, trust me. That kind of a question might as well be 'how was your day?' compared to reading up on some of the stuff that appears in my dashboard on a daily basis.

Plus, any mention of GAD articles "a day later" just indicates an utter and complete lack of understanding of the modern 24-hour news cycle. This happens with every popular story that hits the shelves (it happened with the Doritogate thing, too, for starters). That anyone thinks it's somehow new or related only to gaming journalism just means they need to get out more. >_>

Searching for Doritogate on Google, using a filter starting on October 19, 2012 (the date of the video everyone really got a kick out of) and ending today shows that people are still referencing it, if not writing about it. There are stories that catch peoples' eye for a moment before they go back to their daily routines, and there's the kind of story that people either don't easily forget about or will look into once it's referenced just to find out what happened.

Speaking of which, I ran into this during my search on Doritogate to put the theory of 'people will forget about it' to the test. QuintinStone also thinks Doritogate is going to be discussed during the ethics portion of the panel. Also, I had to laugh at that 'It's a consumer revolt! No, it's a hashtag! No, it's a scandal! No, it's a movement! No, it's a dessert topping!' line.

[Andara Bledin]

It's obvious that people don't really care about ethics in gaming journalism or it would have reached critical mass on it's own. That it took a smokescreen by a crew of assholes to make anything happen is just proof that nobody really cares except as it can further their agendas. Particularly notable in the fact that since the vast majority of everybody understands that GG is about misogyny, the whole ethics fight has lost all visibility once more.

Unlike the assholes of GG, the EGJ crew really is small and fringe. For Doritosgate, people cared for a whole month and then it was on to the next thing.

Also, your comment about Nintendo Power burns in how utterly nonsensical it is. Or do you think that Macworld needs to cover Windows products, and Cat Fancy should include information on dogs, and Parents Magazine should include articles aimed at bachelors?

Plus, any mention of GAD articles "a day later" just indicates an utter and complete lack of understanding of the modern 24-hour news cycle. This happens with every popular story that hits the shelves (it happened with the Doritogate thing, too, for starters). That anyone thinks it's somehow new or related only to gaming journalism just means they need to get out more. >_>

[ZedOmega]

I just have to ask:

If you really and truly care about gaming journalism, why would you crawl into the muck that's been shoveled onto the GG movement?

If you don't want to be linked with misogynistic, sociopathic, shitstains, why in $deity's name would you join a movment whose defining feature is that practically the entire rest of the world thinks that it's full of mysogynistic, sociopathic shitstains?!?

There are actual, legitimate groups that actually work to preserve ethics in journalism; why aren't you fighting for one of them instead of this bloated, tainted wreck of a smokescreen of a movement?

Because the side effect of the movement was unearthing the information that the legitimate groups would need in order to act on it, and unfortunately to gather that information, we had to pretty much wander into an inferno to grab it.

Like I told Nekojin earlier, I'm surprised this whole mess didn't start growing in visibility back when Geoff Keighley was being examined like a crime scene back when Doritogate happened. In fact, depending on who you ask on either side of the issue, the start of the increase in dubious behavior on the parts of the journalists could be traced back to either 2012 (IGN's termination of Jeff Gerstmann due to his writing an unfavorable review of a game the site was receiving a lot of ad revenue from at the time) or even back in the 1980s/1990s (Nintendo Power's coverage of games only available for their consoles; whether or not it counts as an ethical breach with a subscription fee depends on whether you consider in-house coverage of games available on Nintendo's consoles at the time an ethical breach or not).

In fact, even at this point, part of me's even wondering if TZP would've even been a factor in both the sudden naming and growth of GamerGate and the wave of GAD articles that spawned a day later. I still think it would've; it would have had a different (and honestly much more preferable) trigger for it.

(EDIT: cleaned up something in the Nintendo Power part of that. I'd be lying if I said this whole debacle didn't age me any.)

[ZedOmega]

-snip-

Okay, let's address those chat log excerpts first, since instead of asking me what I thought of them, you assumed I was in support of them by proxy. Those assholes should be in jail for even planning that to begin with. Had you asked instead of immediately called me an asshole for the assumption that I was perfectly okay with it, I would have told you flat-out 'no'.

You're so focused on repeating the origin story and the articles talking about the origin story ad infinitum that you don't see what's going on here and now. Even the antis chiming in on the issue over the past month don't bring up the IRC logs nearly as much as you have within the past day.

And did you casually forget that the IRC channel wasn't the only place this matter was being discussed, or is 4chan the only origin point that you're willing to acknowledge? It's not like discussion on the issue was happening anywhere else, right?

You know what? Don't even bother. You're right about there being nothing further to discuss with you. You can keep assuming that it's still a harassment campaign because one channel full of members from one site wanted to make her life an even worse emotional rollercoaster all you want; that's about the only thing your argument even amounts to.

[Andara Bledin]

I just have to ask:

If you really and truly care about gaming journalism, why would you crawl into the muck that's been shoveled onto the GG movement?

If you don't want to be linked with misogynistic, sociopathic, shitstains, why in $deity's name would you join a movment whose defining feature is that practically the entire rest of the world thinks that it's full of mysogynistic, sociopathic shitstains?!?

There are actual, legitimate groups that actually work to preserve ethics in journalism; why aren't you fighting for one of them instead of this bloated, tainted wreck of a smokescreen of a movement?

[Gravekeeper]

You know something? We're getting absolutely nowhere with this. You could continue using blog posts, 4chan screenshots, Storifies and articles you want to and I'll still end up thinking that you could've done at least a little more research at ground level.

I don't know how much more "ground level" you want then the literal logs of the exact moment it was formulated and how. If you want to be willfully ignorant that's your business. But don't project that on us.

If you want to pick up the baton handed to you by a bunch of people that spent days talking about raping Quinn, hoping they end her career and drive her to suicide ( with guest appearances by Quinn's ex to talk about what it was like to fuck a fat chick and provide details about her business and paypal accounts for possible doxxing ) before coming up with a "real" cause to cloak it it under all the while sharing nude photos of her among themselves that's your business. But don't wave it at us like you're on legitimate moral ground.

I am not playing for any "team" here except basic human decency.

Here's just a small selection out of the 3000+ pages of what it is you are standing for:

Aug 18 17.37.57 <SweetJBro> lol I’m tweeting Zoe’s nudes to some of her defenders.

Aug 19 02.28.30 okay, is zoe actually depressed?
Aug 19 02.28.35 i bet she is now
Aug 19 02.28.37 <mugg> diagnosed etc?
Aug 19 02.28.39 kek …
Aug 19 02.29.22 <Opus> I think she tried killing herself before
Aug 19 02.29.28 <kailasha> she should try that again :^)

Aug 21 23.20.35 there should be a massive campaign to tweet zoe her own nudes
Aug 21 23.21.01 <Silver|2> They’ve been tweeted at her a lot

Aug 21 17.48.06 I’m debating whether or not we should just attack zoe …
Aug 21 17.48.29 <Opfag> push her… push her further….. further, until eventually she an heroes …
Aug 21 17.48.51 <OtherGentleman> … What makes you think she has the balls to kill herself?
Aug 21 17.48.57 I kind of want to just make her life irrepairably horrible …
Aug 21 17.49.16 <NASA_Agent> but what if she suicides …
Aug 21 17.49.24 <Opfag> Good.
Aug 21 17.49.29 Then we get to troll #Rememberzoe

Aug 21 18.26.37 <Cyberserker> You need a reason …
Aug 21 18.28.14 <Opfag> Well I don’t have a legitimate reason.
Aug 21 18.28.21 <Cyberserker> Nothing?
Aug 21 18.28.21 <Opfag> I just want to see her die horribly.
Aug 21 18.28.29 <Cyberserker> I’m talking about [your particular fantasies]
Aug 21 18.28.33 <Opfag> Oh.
Aug 21 18.28.39 <totality> sometimes you just want someone to get hurt
Aug 21 18.28.43 <Opfag> That, I have no idea
Aug 21 18.28.48 <totality> nothing wrong with that
Aug 21 18.28.51 all I know is I want zoe to die like that

Aug 21 17.49.48 <rd0951> ./v should be in charge of the gaming journalism aspect of it. /pol should be in charge of the feminism aspect, and /b should be in charge of harassing her into killing herself

Aug 22 02.02.46 <CutestGAmerGorl> Okay guys, how much does Zoe like being choked
Aug 22 02.02.49 <CutestGAmerGorl> during sex? …
Aug 22 02.02.58 <sarahv> clearly not enough

Aug 22 02.21.54 i want to smell zoe quinn’s armpits …

Aug 22 02.25.42 you all would fuck the zoeholes
Aug 22 02.25.46 <JTG> given a chance too
Aug 22 02.25.47 <The_Remover> I am extremely aroused right now …

Aug 22 02.26.47 someone seduce zoe quinn
Aug 22 02.26.53 <vanu> follow the shekels
Aug 22 02.26.56 <The_Remover> I volunteer to take one for the team
Aug 22 02.26.57 <vanu> to her vagina …

Aug 22 02.28.51 meditate to nude pictures of zoe
Aug 22 02.28.53 <The_Remover> she gonna get raped

Aug 22 04.50.24 by the by, trigger warning on that mediafire archive. don’t download if you don’t want to see zoe naked …
Aug 22 21.17.13 <JCTheDenthog> Zoe’s mouth must be the strongest vacuum in nature to compensate for her face, body, and everything

Aug 22 04.53.14 Eugh, why would you want to have her on your HDD? …
Aug 22 04.53.45 <The_Remover> because, a couple of months from now, when all this shit has died down, a raid may just be in order …
Aug 22 04.54.10 and i bet her dad doesn’t know she did porn …

Aug 22 23.00.55 <Drinky_Kraw> I don’t think there’s anything left to harass Zoe over anyway. …
Aug 22 23.01.00 <Drinky_Kraw> The laundry is pretty much all aired

Aug 23 05.40.20 <Josh_> Zoe has a gross robotic hand, blue hair, and tats 4 days
Aug 23 05.40.29 <Josh_> if I was forced to put my dick in one of them
Aug 23 05.40.29 <Josh_> Anita
Aug 23 05.40.39 <GribFabdabgib> If I had to put my dick in them, yeah Anita
Aug 23 05.40.43 Anita is a skinny bitch whos all bones
Aug 23 05.40.48 <DarkHiero> True …

Aug 23 05.41.07 <DarkHiero> But at least it looks like she tries to take care of herself. …
Aug 23 05.41.15 <Headsmash_> From just looks alone, Id rather do Zoe than Anita. Fat bitches usually give better head anyway.
Aug 23 05.41.21 <DarkHiero> If I’m putting my dick in crazy, that matters.
Aug 23 05.42.00 <DTrig> Yeah but odds are good you get the clap/crabs from Zoe
Aug 23 05.42.14 <Headsmash_> Same could be said for Anita based on what we know
Aug 23 05.42.17 <Headsmash_> lol
Aug 23 05.42.32 * DarkHiero shrugs
Aug 23 05.42.34 Anita looks like she douches though
Aug 23 05.42.36 <DTrig> ANd cleans up
Aug 23 05.42.39 Zoe…. eh

Aug 23 19.38.17 <Headsmash_> So does anyone think Zoe’s gonna off herself and become a catalyst for misogyny and hatred of women in video games and video game culture? …
Aug 23 19.38.47 if zoe offed herself she probably wouldn’t be anything but an ED article ..
Aug 23 19.38.55 <Araf> Headsmash_: She won’t, she has a too big ego …
Aug 23 19.39.13 <Headsmash_> I’m not too sure about that. I think she could.
Aug 23 19.39.16 <Araf> She would off herself if everyone ignored her and abandoned her, which is not the case. …
Aug 23 19.39.25 <Headsmash_> Depends on how much she gets stuck in the victimization complex. …
Aug 23 19.39.28 Really the 5guys scandal is the most famous Zoe has been …
Aug 23 19.39.43 <rd0952> yeah but she’s also been harassed night and day for a week

Aug 24 12.24.22 who really wants to meet zoe quinn and be kind and comfort her in this time of crisis
Aug 24 12.24.43 <Cyberserker> Not if you comfort her with a knife-hug
Aug 24 12.24.45 <Cameralady> and slowly, through friendship and blossoming relationship, get her to repair her shitty ways and come clean and become a good person …

Aug 24 12.24.52 <Cameralady> and then
Aug 24 12.24.56 <Cameralady> once she’s reformed
Aug 24 12.24.58 <Cyberserker> knife-hug?
Aug 24 12.25.07 dump her in the most brutal, heartwrenching way possible

Aug 24 15.16.10 <PaperDinosaur> Also Zoe is no longer the target to be focused on
Aug 24 15.16.13 <Josh_> ^^
Aug 24 15.16.14 <sarahv> ^^^^^
Aug 24 15.16.18 It’s about the 5guys
Aug 24 15.16.21 <sarahv> It always has been
Aug 24 15.16.28 <Josh_> It’s more about the journos
Aug 24 15.16.33 <PaperDinosaur> She’s done, we’ve wrecked her in a professional manner. …
Aug 24 15.16.42 <sarahv> Unfortunately most of the people involved in this seem to be interested in destroying Zoe
Aug 24 15.16.46 stop digging up shit on zoe’s past
Aug 24 15.16.47 <PaperDinosaur> Now we have to wreck her shield, the people who tried to defend her

Aug 25 00.02.21 <Cyberserker> Last question is from several people actually. I wanted to save it until the end due to how popular it was.
Aug 25 00.02.22 <Cyberserker> “Would you say Zoe was a “big girl” for you?” …
Aug 25 00.03.04 <Eron_G> she is heavier than people I usually date. …
Aug 25 00.03.12 <Cyberserker> Fair enough …
Aug 25 00.03.14 <ebola-chan> Did she not fly so good?

Aug 25 00.04.13 What does her pusy smell like must answer …
Aug 25 00.07.11 Eron, when you went down on her, did you taste the other guys semen? If so, what did it taste like? …
Aug 25 00.10.40 Eron I don’t think you want your headphones back, it’s most likely splattered in Nathan’s semen and Robin’s Menstrual fluids. …
Aug 25 00.16.52 eron are you going to take up sucking dick now that you’ve been cucked by the 2/10 ugly jew

Aug 25 00.19.28 <EronLovesZoe> I feel like I would probably fuck Zoe. But not out of a loving sense of sexual attraction. More of that “hate fuck” sense where you just want to assert your dominance as a male on her, a primal savagery. Then I’d probably have to sterilize myself to prevent the genome from spreading.
Aug 25 00.19.59 I’d slap a saddle on zoe and ride her throught the midwest
Aug 25 00.20.02 I wouldn’t even get that far EronLovesZoe, I’d just start raging and headbutting her and gnawing on her cheek …

Aug 25 00.20.10 that seabiscuit looking ass bith

Aug 25 07.18.18 <Logan> Any chance we can get Zoe to commit suicide?
Aug 25 07.18.29 if we can get more daming evidence
Aug 25 07.18.29 I think the [doxxing info removed by DF] is a good shot.
Aug 25 07.18.33 <temet> like her fucking a train of lack dudes …
Aug 25 07.18.39 <PaperDinosaur> fuck off Logan
Aug 25 07.18.39 <temet> black
Aug 25 07.18.51 <Logan> Nah 21st century doing a train is so 90s. …
Aug 25 07.18.59 <PaperDinosaur> If she commits suicide we lose everything …
Aug 25 07.20.34 <PaperDinosaur> If you can’t see how driving Zoe to suicide would fuck this entire thing up then you’re a fucking idiot
Aug 25 07.20.41 Imagine the kotaku article …
Aug 25 07.20.48 <temet> PaperDinosaur is right
Aug 25 07.20.51 <temet> not the right PR play

By your own free admission you entered into this on Aug 20th. When the festering core of it was just getting into full swing ( btw, part of the 4chan op was the creation and usage of sockpuppet Twitter accounts to manipulate the message ).

At that time you, from your very own post, showed no knowledge of the true underbelly of what was happening.

Yet now you're sitting here trying to argue that this wasn't a misogynistic shit fit organized entirely by terrible people? And are claiming that I'M the one missing evidence?

I don't think there's anything more to discuss here. You are either willfully ignorant or a terrible person and there's no point speaking any further with either one.

[ZedOmega]

Congratulations. You have an immensely more involved and informed awareness than 99% of the GGers that ever came into that other site (Let's call it X from now on, so that I can just short-hand it). I'm willing to accept that you're interested in journalistic integrity more than slut-shaming, but that makes your tying yourself to GG all the more mystifying.

Familiar territory; I was observing both sides of the fallout from TZP when both the hashtag was coined and the GAD articles dropped. Honestly I'm surprised the whole game journalism ethics issue wasn't resolved when Doritogate happened.

FWIW, though, TotalBiscuit isn't a shining knight. He strongly resisted disclosing when he was getting paid to promote games for quite a while, and only relented when UK regulators started applying pressure on him for it. I actually like his work, but if you're seriously interested in gaming journalistic integrity, you really can't hold him as an example. He is, and was, a hypocrite.

Whether he calls himself a "journalist" or not doesn't really matter much - it's what you do, not the label you choose to wear, that matters. And he has called himself a journalist in the past, when it benefited him.

To be fair, Sterling was a pretty caustic asshole prior to his learning about and supporting feminism. Then again, Destructoid itself isn't exactly a monastery either; Holly Green and Allistair Pinsof immediately come to mind.

[Nekojin]

Congratulations. You have an immensely more involved and informed awareness than 99% of the GGers that ever came into that other site (Let's call it X from now on, so that I can just short-hand it). I'm willing to accept that you're interested in journalistic integrity more than slut-shaming, but that makes your tying yourself to GG all the more mystifying.

FWIW, though, TotalBiscuit isn't a shining knight. He strongly resisted disclosing when he was getting paid to promote games for quite a while, and only relented when UK regulators started applying pressure on him for it. I actually like his work, but if you're seriously interested in gaming journalistic integrity, you really can't hold him as an example. He is, and was, a hypocrite.

Whether he calls himself a "journalist" or not doesn't really matter much - it's what you do, not the label you choose to wear, that matters. And he has called himself a journalist in the past, when it benefited him. His line of, "I'm not a jounalist, never have been, never will be," is just fundamentally dishonest.

[ZedOmega]

I spent five minutes there. It's a waste of time; most people using #GamerGate aren't saying anything that even remotely involves anything with the whole GG fiasco. For the ones that are, well, it's been well-known for quite a while that the seriously dirty shit that GG assholes are planning, and have planned, get done in semi-private locations, like IRC channels.

Even with that said, the shit that GG engaged in during the early days was enough to have GamerGate become what I understand to be the first and only thing (so far) to get banned from 4chan that isn't illegal in the first place. Congrats, GG, you're on a par with child porn, there...

But let's set that aside for a moment. Can you tell me, without looking anything up, three events from the past year that are worth talking about as "Ethics in Gaming Journalism" that have nothing to do with Grayson, Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, Pao, GamerGate itself, or "Gamers Are Dead"?

Okay.

The most recent thing I can recall off the top of my head is the revelation that TotalBiscuit releasing a SoundCloud recently talking about how he'd had enough of the verbal abuse he's been taking over the past year. Before this gets met with a response of him being a YouTuber instead of a games journalist, he and the company he works for are almost revered for their goals to remain unbiased when it comes to reviewing (or in TB's case, giving first impressions of) a game.

The second item I can think of is the change of both Gameranx's ethics policies and Ian Miles Cheong's views of the so-called Social Justice movement, as well as the verbal abuse he'd been getting. This has relevance to the issue as he's the current EiC of Gameranx, and is on record saying "Who gives a fuck about ethics in games journalism? It's fucking games journalism."

And the third thing that comes to mind is Jim Sterling quitting his job as contributor at The Escapist and going indie, due to his fears of Escapist starting to show preference to companies that reward them with more ad revenue, and reaching the level of US$6k/month in Patreon contributions within two days. Relevant because of his and TB's shared coverage of the Plaid Social scandal revolving around keys given to reviewers who follow a specific set of guidelines Plaid Social wanted them to follow and their denouncement of such an agreement.

(EDIT: Meant to say 'unbiased' instead of 'neutral' when going over the first thing to come to mind.)

[Nekojin]

Then, if you still have the stomach for that, you may want to do some actual investigation on your own outside of Gawker. I'll even make it easy for you since you apparently won't check without a link to laugh at:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&...rGate&src=typd

We'll pick this up once you show me that you've spent at least five minutes in there.

I spent five minutes there. It's a waste of time; most people using #GamerGate aren't saying anything that even remotely involves anything with the whole GG fiasco. For the ones that are, well, it's been well-known for quite a while that the seriously dirty shit that GG assholes are planning, and have planned, get done in semi-private locations, like IRC channels. Even the particularly toxic GG'ers know to keep the very public channels (like Twitter) for the well-polished "good" face.

Even with that said, the shit that GG engaged in during the early days was enough to have GamerGate become what I understand to be the first and only thing (so far) to get banned from 4chan that isn't illegal in the first place. Congrats, GG, you're on a par with child porn, there...

But let's set that aside for a moment. Can you tell me, without looking anything up, three events from the past year that are worth talking about as "Ethics in Gaming Journalism" that have nothing to do with Grayson, Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, Pao, GamerGate itself, or "Gamers Are Dead"?

[ZedOmega]

So, half a dozen people with links and actual hard data on events as they happened, but you're just going to keep your head buried in the sand crying "lalala"...

Can't say as I'm all that surprised, tho.... Can't reason a person out of a decision they didn't use reason to make in the first place. >_<

Most of what I've been seeing out of both of you and GK is 'they're still indefensible assholes' while at least one or two people have pretty much said 'yeah, I still don't feel comfortable saying if I'm for or against them, but at least I understand why one of their detractors isn't helping matters at all.' And as much as the argument with GK is doing wonders for both my temper and my blood pressure at this point, at least he's responding to at least some of the counterpoints I've given. The only thing I've seen from you once I posted my thoughts on this is 'yeah, fuck this zombie.'

In fact, the closest thing I've seen to a neutral response to the issue over the past months' worth of posts in this thread got met with a reaction of 'yeah, you're still a fuckface for supporting them.' The logic behind it? 'Well, if Sarkeesian and Quinn were guys, you'd have never even heard of them.' Yeah, let's continue making assumptions on what someone's reaction would be to an issue if the genders were flipped, yet claim to be the reasonable ones. That'll win points in the long run...

[Andara Bledin]

So, half a dozen people with links and actual hard data on events as they happened, but you're just going to keep your head buried in the sand crying "lalala"...

Can't say as I'm all that surprised, tho.... Can't reason a person out of a decision they didn't use reason to make in the first place. >_<

[ZedOmega]

-snip-

You know something? We're getting absolutely nowhere with this. You could continue using blog posts, 4chan screenshots, Storifies and articles you want to and I'll still end up thinking that you could've done at least a little more research at ground level. You plainly refuse to, instead going the 'it's not even worth defending because these websites with a bone to pick clearly say it isn't' route.

As much as you like to say 'you drank the kool-aid,' it may very well be time to look in a mirror. If you can still do that and not feel even the slightest bit irritated with yourself, then take a look at what happens to antis who so much as take one step out of line. I've already given you two links in my first response to you showing you how acidic they can get; if that's the team you want to play for, fine and dandy. Just remember that they will and have thrown their own to the wolves for not marching in perfect cadence.

Then, if you still have the stomach for that, you may want to do some actual investigation on your own outside of Gawker. I'll even make it easy for you since you apparently won't check without a link to laugh at:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&...rGate&src=typd

We'll pick this up once you show me that you've spent at least five minutes in there.