If homosexuality is not a choice...

[LewisLegion]

Then they come to my favorite: "Everyone can marry someone of the opposite sex. You just don't want to." Never mind that that's about as sure a path to disaster and heartache for all involved as you can find.

To which I point out this:

What if someone said to you (you meaning the presumably straight individual that just spouted this idiocy) you are allowed to get married, but ONLY if you marry a ninety year old, 700lb man with severe halitosis?

What? Don't want to get married to him? Why not? He's perfectly nice. What, you'd rather instead get married to someone you're attracted to? Don't worry about that. Have sex with him a few times and that'll fix itself. Wait, you don't agree? In fact, you'd rather go and vomit than even attempt to have sex with this man even once?

Well, then. You're just being silly. You can get married, you just don't want to...so stop complaining.

[HYHYBT]

It's a polite fiction they tell themselves, and the world, to try to get around the fact that they're being utter hypocrites. A good number of them actually believe it, too, because it's easier than thinking all the way down the line and coming to the same conclusion you just have.

^-.-^

Then they come to my favorite: "Everyone can marry someone of the opposite sex. You just don't want to." Never mind that that's about as sure a path to disaster and heartache for all involved as you can find.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I am afraid I don't have a specific reply to this, but I can say the Christian views on homosexuality have been a source of spiritual struggle for me.

Not because I have any homosexual tendencies but because I really can't stand the way a lot of Churches and so called "Christians" treat gay people.

I've always found it interesting that Jesus NEVER mentions homosexuality. He mentions marriage, he mentions sin, he mentions love but he never mentions being gay.

The most prominent places homosexuality is addressed is in Leviticus (which is were you'll find the well known scripture referring to it as an "abomination") and in the letters of Paul, I believe in either 1 Corinthians or 2 Corinthians.

For me personally, I say that Jesus' greatest command was to "love one another as I have loved you". That's it. Care, respect and dignity for everyone. That's how I live my life.

I work with a woman who is a lesbian. I may not necessarily agree with her lifestyle but I do not mistreat her in any way. In fact I respect the hell out of her. She's the kind of person that will have your back when you need her to.

[Andara Bledin]

That is not what is being asked of heterosexual members, only homosexual ones. Thus the argument 'we are not asking anything of our homosexual members that we do not ask of our heterosexual ones' is a complete untruth, a total fabrication.

It's a polite fiction they tell themselves, and the world, to try to get around the fact that they're being utter hypocrites. A good number of them actually believe it, too, because it's easier than thinking all the way down the line and coming to the same conclusion you just have.

^-.-^

[LewisLegion]

No, chastity is for everyone at all times. *Celibacy* is for unmarried people.

Sorry, got my semantics wrong. I stand corrected. However, question remains the same.

Heterosexual members only have to remain celibate until they marry. Homosexuals have to remain celibate forever, being denied that connection, partnership, and the affection of romantic love with someone they are attracted to.

Forever. Imagine that for a moment. For the rest of your life, you're not allowed to date, fall in love, kiss someone you're attracted to, hold hands, make love, share responsibilities, support, or care.

For your entire life. Forever.

That is not what is being asked of heterosexual members, only homosexual ones. Thus the argument 'we are not asking anything of our homosexual members that we do not ask of our heterosexual ones' is a complete untruth, a total fabrication.

[HYHYBT]

Chastity is required for all members to a POINT. Chastity is required from heterosexual members UNTIL THEY MARRY.

No, chastity is for everyone at all times. *Celibacy* is for unmarried people.

[Andara Bledin]

In reality, Mother Nature is gay as all get out.

Mother Nature colors fairly evenly with pretty much the entire spectrum.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Actually, that's pretty much what I said in the next line of my post that you quoted.

And I'm just confirming it for you. Homosexuality is only an issue now because Christianity made it one.

In reality, Mother Nature is gay as all get out.

[Ree]

Wrong way around. Homosexuality was always prevalent, it was only the rise of the Catholic church that shoved it into the closet. Take a look at the Roman empire before and after the rise of Christianity.

Actually, that's pretty much what I said in the next line of my post that you quoted.

Perhaps it has always existed to the degree that it exists today, but people feel able to speak more freely about it and admit to it, while before, there was a fear for their life for admitting or acting on it.
It certainly must have existed during the times of the Bible, to a significant enough degree, or why was it even mentioned?

[Gravekeeper]

I don't know why God would create people with homosexual tendencies, and I don't know why homosexuality seems to be so much more prevalent today.

Wrong way around. Homosexuality was always prevalent, it was only the rise of the Catholic church that shoved it into the closet. Take a look at the Roman empire before and after the rise of Christianity.

Homosexuality's current position in modern western cultural is a direct result of the Catholic Church for the most part.

[bex1218]

I really think all this hate was created by man, not by some supposed loving all powerful being. And if it is a sin to make love with my girlfriend (if I ever find one again), I will not ask for forgiveness.

[powerboy]

You all do know that over the years, there have been people taking text out and adding text. Just saying

[Rageaholic]

I do not see any kind of loving God making these mandates. If it is an inborn genetic trait, then it is as it is meant to be. It cannot be likened to other traits such as a tendancy toward addiction or violence. Why?

Because controlling those traits and not acting upon them does not rob the person of vital, life-sustaining, healthy resources.

You'd think believing that we were all created by a perfect God would make people more accepting, but instead it has the opposite affect. Why would God make people with tendencies that he deem unacceptable and worthy of damnation?

Oh yeah, original fucking sin. We're all born "fallen" and need to be saved. I say fuck that shit. If it weren't for such a dumbass, detestable doctrine, than maybe more good would come out of religion.

I'm considering starting a thread on that very topic.

[LewisLegion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ree
but I'm pretty sure the church does not see the homosexual desire as sinful, but it's the acting on that desire that makes it a sin, in the same way that acting on improper heterosexual desires is a sin.

Sorry, wanted to address this specifically and ask a couple things.

Homosexual desire is not sinful but acting on that desire is, just as acting on IMPROPER heterosexual desires is a sin.

If homosexual desire is not a sin, then what constitues acting on a PROPER homosexual desire? If acting on homosexual desire is equal to acting on IMPROPER heterosexual desire, then it seems to me another brush is just being used to paint 'sin' on the desire itself by calling it improper from the get-go.

This is very much in line with what my church teaches also. They teach that sex is reserved only for marriage. Chastity is required of all members. So being homosexual in and of itself is not a sin, acting on it is. Being heterosexual and having sexual desires is not a sin, but acting on those desires outside marriage is. Being married but with a spouse who is incapable of participating is sex does not allow that person to seek those things outside of his/her vows.

Chastity is required for all members to a POINT. Chastity is required from heterosexual members UNTIL THEY MARRY. Chastity is required from all homosexual members FOREVER. The chastity being required is not the same, there are provisos plastered on to it.

You cannot have sex until you are married.
You cannot BE married.
You cannot ever have sex. <--- this is NOT what is being asked of heterosexual members.

A church claiming not to ask anything of their homosexual members that they do not ask of their heterosexual members is outright lying...unless they allow homosexual members to marry like everyone else.

[LewisLegion]

I know this is an old thread, I just wanted to pipe up with my own take on matters, being both a Christian and a homosexual.

A couple points that were made:

If homosexuality is a sin it is the sin of lust, and is only a sin if acted upon outside the bonds of marriage.

Having the desires is not sinful but acting upon them is.

To that, I must put out this:

Love and affection is necessary to the continuation of life...not just procreation, but individual. It has been proven that babies and children that are in every other way perfectly cared for but prevented from being touched or shown love and affection will die. They just give up and die.

Grown adults who are/feel unloved and prevented from giving or recieving affection eventually do the same. They sink into depressive states, and eventually simply give up on life or actively commit suicide. I have been very close to this sad end myself.

People who are married live longer. They have less stress. They are happier on the whole. It is a natural part of being a human being to pursue and seek out romantic love, partnership, and bonding. I daresay it is vital to health, wellbeing, longevity, and life itself. To love and feel you are loved, to have that helpmate, someone devoted soley to you in their heart as you are devoted solely to them...vital.

Now you have two people. One is heterosexual (an inborn trait), the other homosexual (an inborn trait).

Person one, who is heterosexual, is told to be celibate until they are married but are:

Encouraged to find a partner attractive to them.
Encouraged to date, hold hands, share affectionate gestures in the form of touches, kisses, hugs and simply being together.
Encouraged to marry and then to have children and raise them together as a family.

Now, you have person two. They are told to be celibate.

But you can't show any sort of affection toward a person you are physically attracted to.
You can't hold hands. You can't hug them. You can't kiss them. You can't touch them affectionately.
You can't date. You can't get married. You cannot have or adopt children. You cannot have a family.

You're fine, so long as you're sad and alone for the rest of your life.

I do not see any kind of loving God making these mandates. If it is an inborn genetic trait, then it is as it is meant to be. It cannot be likened to other traits such as a tendancy toward addiction or violence. Why?

Because controlling those traits and not acting upon them does not rob the person of vital, life-sustaining, healthy resources.

Not becoming an alcoholic does not cause depression and suicide. Not acting on violent urges does not lead to a shortened life-span, depression, and misery. No one is ever abandoned to be alone for the rest of their life because of these harmful tendancies they must learn to control.

The nature of sin is that it is harmful. It is harmful to others, or to one's self. Homosexuality is not harmful to self or anyone else. Repressing it, denying it, and attempting to eliminate it IS.

If a homosexual is allowed to get married, then how is a loving act performed between other such married couples suddenly a sin when performed by this married couple?

Is it because children can't be produced? Maybe not through direct homosexual sex no, but homosexuals can and do have children. They can even now have biological children with each other (moving the genetic information from the egg of one lesbian into a sperm casing that has been sterilized of its own genetic information, or doing the same with a sperm to a sterlized egg in the matter of a gay male partnership).

So what then is the issue? Where is the harm? From what I've seen, the only sinful harm that has come about because of homosexuality is directly because of activity used to control it, not because of the trait itself. Promiscuity exists in any sexual orientation. Extramarital sex exists because we aren't allowed to be married. Depression, anger, lonliness, despair, sickness, and death come because of being forced into the unnatural state of celibacy.

Saying that homosexuality is fine so long as you don't act upon it is, to me, the same as saying 'being left handed is fine so long as you never use your left hand', or 'being blue eyed is fine so long as you never look at anything'.

Homosexuality is a trait, not a disease, a tendancy, an inclination or a choice. It is a TRAIT. Like race, color, hair color, eye color, handedness.

It is not a disease such as blindness, alcoholism, cancer, diabetes, or various physical and mental handicaps. To lump it in with diseases people have to overcome lends the dangerous notion that a) it's a disease and b) it can be overcome. Neither are true.

I don't believe God labels it as a sin. I do believe in God. I believe God is love, and I believe God is a hell of a lot smarter than we are.

Love =/= hate. God cannot and does not hate because He is love, and not contrary to His own nature.

God is smart. If we've figured out it's wrong to call this a sin, then He knew that a hell of a long time ago. If it WERE a mortal sin than it would be A) not a genetic trait and B) mentioned a hell of a lot more frequently than it is in the scriptures. Heck, it would be in the Ten Commandments. If it's 'second only to Murder' then it would be IN there...since Murder is in there, and a bunch of other things that are LESS than second to Murder...like theft, and lying.

Homosexuality is not a sin, and I cannot even hypothetically surmise that it is. To do so would be to hypothetically surmise that need of food, shelter, water, and medical care is a sin. The only sin is in how homosexual people are being treated and asked to live lonely, miserable, unnatural lives because of other people's discomfort.