How to Get Into Heaven

[Lace Neil Singer]

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page.

Rapscallion

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I'm an atheist; however, I was brought up Christian. I just don't believe in god; however, I try to live well. I just believe that when we die, we become worm McDonalds.

[Slytovhand]

You know... there's no real reason why this one big G god couldn't be a nasty piece of work, and just had his angels and the devil do a PR job for him. I mean, in reality, if you had ultimate power over the entire universe and all within it, you could pick and choose whatever you damn well wanted to... and stuff what any of those minions on planets want to think or debate. You want to give them some book with a pile of balony in it to get a few of them to worship you out of ego... go right ahead. You want them to convince them you're actually a nice guy, while having fun killing them off... go for it! (sort of reminds me of the abuse cycle, actually...)

But as for the OT (that's - original topic, not Old Testament ), to get a question depends on 'if'...it depends on what 'heaven' is defined as, and thus what this 'God' is defined as... "IF.. G is such and such, then to get to heaven, you.....".

I was thinking the other day (as I'm wont to do...) that way back when, within the first century or 2 (or perhaps, 4) that missionaries did a lot of travelling, and they got themselves to the UK. Apparently, they managed to convert some of the druids there. This has apparently been shown that they 'saw the light' about God and JC. My thought was... sort of. The version of Christianity they were taught was quite different to the variants of Christianity alive today. Some of those variants back then included reincarnation, the Sun as the physical manifestation of God, etc.

My point on that (if I was making one....), was that the nature of God has gone through some changes throughout time and culture and society... the Bible has changed (and that's after the 'policiticians' got their hands on it..).

So.. I will ask a question for those who have a belief in 'god' (of whatever type)... do you think your (I'll use a more generic term) deity actively works in the world and universe now... or has all been said and done? Or are there the occasional miracles, but the rest of us are left to their own devices? (it does relate to the original thread... cos it refers to God's relationship to us.. and thus your chances of seeing those fluffy white clouds and having eternal harp lessons).


Slyt

[BlaqueKatt]

from this very informative site:

under "ask the Rabbi"

G’d gave the Jewish People the Torah on Mount Sinai and entered into a covenant with Abraham and his descendants. But G’d also had a plan for the other peoples of the world. They are governed by the Covenant that G’d made with Noah when Noah left the ark after the flood waters had receded.

Only Judaism makes the claim that G-d spoke to an entire nation of some three million people. If it had not happened as recorded, then it is highly improbable that an entire nation could be duped into believing, “a national revelation occurred, but every single one of your ancestors forget to tell you….”

Christianity expects people to base their faith on the veracity of a communication between G-d and a single person. This was a communication that, if it did occur, no one else heard, and is, therefore, inherently unverifiable. Ergo, believing in a religion on that basis is logically unjustifiable, and is rejected by the Jews.



and this

Non-Jews who aren’t sinners (i.e., who obey the Noahide laws) go to heaven when they die (Talmud, Sanhedrin 102b; Maimonides, Repentance 3:5). When the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 11:1) lists major sinners who have no share in the World to Come, it includes a non-Jew, Bilaam. This implies that ordinary sinners, whether Jewish or not, are subject to the same rules: temporary punishment followed by permanent reward.

these are the 7 Noahide laws

The seven laws that were given to Adam and Noah are discussed in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin). In brief, these laws are: establishing a legal system; refraining from idolatry, blasphemy, murder, robbery, adultery and incest; and not eating from an animal while it is still alive. ("Adultery and incest" counts only as one; the Hebrew word for this class of forbidden sexual relations doesn’t have a one-word translation in English.)

Pretty easy to get to heaven by jewish standards actually

[Slytovhand]

Hey BlaqueKatt... that's a cool one!!

Here's my reason really, of why I can't follow one of the monotheistic religions as they are set out in their books...

Either...

a) the universe was made about 13.5 billion years ago. There are masses of clouds of superclusters of galaxies, with almost infinite stars (and possibly planets). In all that time, and in all that place, the ONLY thing that means anything to God is what some slightly more self-aware race on a tiny little planet in some small bit of space, thinks and believes in only the last couple of thousand years ( (if you put that on a 100m timeline, our last 2000 years wouldn't even measure up to 1 millimetre),

or...

b) humans, in trying to understand or find a place in the world, create stories which place them at the top (or near the top) of the evolutionary chain. Since there are other powerful forces in the world, they make out that those forces (or one big force) has put them here for a reason, and that reason means that they are special and can do what they want... they are 'chosen'. It also means, that when things are bad, and they are persecuted, they can 'justify' (or at least, find some solace) by saying that they are those chosen ones, and that they will reap some reward by following that path (as laid out in their holy books).


Well... there's my 2c

Slyt

[Zyanya]

There is a quote I generally give to those I believe are truly faithful and trying to spread their faith (as opposed to bible-pushers).


Preach your faith every day in every place. On very special occasions, use words.

[Flyndaran]

I am one of those rare creatures, a born atheist. I just cannot understand the mental gymnastics required to force reality into some semblance of evidence for a god.
Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer or supernatural violations of physical laws.
The idea that one's god is nice, yet imposes horrific torment for those unworthy no matter how stacked against them life's deck was is offensive to my sense of fairness.
I just wish I could live long enough for humanity to grow out of its obsession with superstitions and delusional egocentrism. My odd don't look so good.

[Slytovhand]

Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer ...

I'd debate that point...

While obvious connections haven't been made, there are situations where 'miracles' have occured (usually health-wise) and there were prayers made... There might be some really good reasons that aren't 'God' based, but it does happen.

Besides... lack of evidence isn't proof against

Of course - the above proves nothing, and doesn't even mention whether heaven even exists (other than in an ice-cream freezer )

[Shangri-laschild]

Every scientific test shows that there is no positive effect for prayer or supernatural violations of physical laws.

When I used to be really religious, there were times when I would be freaking out about something so I would pray. Maybe there weren't any scientific results or anything, but I would feel calmer and be able to think things through a bit better. Some people get comfort from feeling like they are talking to someone who's listening and who cares. Even if there isn't any God or anything like that, in some ways, it does help people which means there is a positive effect.

[AFPheonix]

If I were more motivated, I'd go look up some study I'd heard about that measured the effect of prayer on people's healing times on stuff. They determined it was pretty much placebo, and people recovered faster if they KNEW someone was praying for them.
But hey, I'm all for people taking advantage of psychosomatic responses.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Doesn't seem to make any difference what you pray to; you could be praying to fairies, elves, your dead ancestors or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; and the psychosomatic effect would be the same, if you believed in what you were praying to. So that disproves the existance of god rather than proves it.

[BlaqueKatt]

When I used to be really religious, there were times when I would be freaking out about something so I would pray. Maybe there weren't any scientific results or anything, but I would feel calmer and be able to think things through a bit better. Some people get comfort from feeling like they are talking to someone who's listening and who cares. Even if there isn't any God or anything like that, in some ways, it does help people which means there is a positive effect.

I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves. As a matter of fact that is the reason my last husband left me. His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.


Definition of an Atheist-
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist knows that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find within himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist knows that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."

An Atheist seeks to know himself then and his fellow rather than to know a god. An Atheist understands that a hospital must be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand, love and accept all of mankind. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god, channel action into prayer, or hope for an ends to our troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are not only our brother's keepers - but keepers of our lives foremost, that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.

[Slytovhand]

I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)

Yeah - I have to agree with that. More specifically, when you meditate (and/or enter a prayerful state), you enter an 'alpha' level of brain waves - or deeper ones... which is what 'relaxation' is all about. If you get deeper, then you start attuning more to other states of consciousness (for whatever that may mean for each individual - it may even mean 'connecting with God' if that's your cup of tea).

That state also enhances healing in the body, and is where we go when we sleep (sleep is a good cure ) - so maybe it isn't as much of a placebo as thought...(although, how that's going to explain someoneelse's healing, is a different matter).

-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves. As a matter of fact that is the reason my last husband left me. His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.

Growly growl growl... invite her over, put a knife in her hand.. and then conveniently forget you did...

I gotta have a mass of hate to people who use their religion to persecute others, or try to blame such events on 'God's punishment for your evil'...

People need to take responsibility for all their own stuff - let's face it, if 'he' is up there, then he's going to look at just how responsible you were down here anyway...


I won't go where you did at the end there, BK, mostly cos it doesn't just apply to atheists (and may not be true for all anyway). As a pagan, I live my life in a way similar to what you've just said - but I also 'believe' in other stuff that falls into the theistic category. I don't 'rely' on them to fix my life, but use their help to get me through when I need it (if they'll give it).

Slyt

[Lace Neil Singer]

His mother told him she prayed and God told him to leave me as I was a Godless heathan and our son was autistic as "punishment"-she told him if he left me our son would be fine-well he's still autistic but she "has faith" that her prayers will be answered and he'll be cured of his autism by God.

She sounds like the mother in law from hell to me, pardon the pun. XD

Wonder what she'd say about my Aspergers? My parents are a practicing Christian and a practicing Jew; no heathens they. XD It always makes me laugh when people who are supposedly intelligent come up with the "punishment from god" excuse; you'd think that kind of attitude had been safely left in the middle ages.

[AFPheonix]

Doesn't seem to make any difference what you pray to; you could be praying to fairies, elves, your dead ancestors or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; and the psychosomatic effect would be the same, if you believed in what you were praying to. So that disproves the existance of god rather than proves it.

I don't suspect that it really did matter, perhaps just the fact that someone cared enough about the patient to try and intercede with some higher being was enough to help them think that they were indeed getting better. But hey, it was a measurable response, and it proved the benefit that people think prayer gives. I don't think it was attempting to prove the existence of God.

[protege]

I get the same "calming effect" from meditation(I'm a Buddhist)-and I know way too many people that "put their problems in God's hands" rather than take action themselves.

I'm not religious at all (former Catholic here...I say "former," because I don't follow any of it. Getting told you won't amount to anything in Catholic grade school will do that...but that's another rant entirely.) but I do meditate a bit from time to time. Of course I rant a bit in the LJ as well...simply by letting things out helps me solve problems.

Maybe God exists, maybe he doesn't. I'm not about to worry about it. I try to treat people they way I want to be treated. For example, treat me with respect, and I do the same. Attempt to screw me over, and I'll nail your ass to the wall. However, I don't do that unless provoked, and it takes quite a bit to provoke me

I also don't like the idea of God punishing those who either aren't religious...or choose to follow a different path. The problem I have with that idea...is, according to most religious types, God, who not only loves us, created everything. If so, that means He also created the different path. Also, if so, why would He, if he loves us, damn to all eternity followers of the different path He created?

Somewhat along those lines, I find the whole "My God is better than your God" argument amusing. I thought most people grew out of the concept of "imaginary friends." (Not trying to insult anyone here, folks!) If prayer and belief in God (or the purple 3-headed yak, or whatever) is your thing, fine. As long as you don't force it on me, I don't have a problem with it. Unless you start spouting off that I'm going to hell, that is

But, if you *really* want an interesting situation...some of you know that my ex-girlfriend was religious. How we got along, I'll never know. Seriously--we never got into any religious arguments. I simply told her why I felt like I did, and she accepted it. I did the same with her beliefs.