Some thoughts on Easter Sunday

[Fryk]

That's exactly my point, Ghel. AND, how does, "I don't know if God exists, I seek proof of this claim," equate to not liking him? And how does it lead to the same punishment as "I HATE GOD! I WISH TO OVERTHROW HIM AND RULE IN HIS PLACE!!!!!!!"?

[Ghel]

What about people who have never heard of or have no concept of a god? Aborigines, infants, the severely retarded? They've never heard any of the various concepts of god. They can't accept something they've never heard of. They can't dislike him. Does he send them to hell? Or do they get a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

[Hobbs]

For angels, it's a punishment because they are ethereal beings and are thus separated from God's light. Similarly, humans who don't accept God are separated from Him. In my opinion; God realizes you don't like Him, so why would he put you somewhere where you'd live with Him forever?

[Fryk]

So how is it that the actions of angels, who KNEW with verifyable proof that God exists, and the actions of humans, who have NO verifyable proof, are punished with the same severity? That seems extremely unfair to me.

[Hobbs]

Exactly. Hell didn't exist until the Angels rebelled and were cast into Perdition.

[HYHYBT]

I don't generally worry over the exact natures of angels and demons, or Heaven and Hell; a strong preference for one over the other is enough. But as I understand it, they'd be better off in Hell than we would, because it was made for them and not for us.

[Ghel]

So do you think that angels/demons in Hell have it better or worse than humans? Since they know God exists (they don't have to take it on faith) and are thus being punished for rebelling rather than not believing.

[Hobbs]

Then in your case, angels became corrupted the moment they defied God and tried to overthrow him. It's like being sent to Leavenworth for trying to stage a coup.

[Fryk]

Not angels, Hobbs. Demons. Sorry, I overpronouned :: )

[Hobbs]

They don't exist in heaven, they exist in hell or on earth, that is the crux of the problem. And I am talking about the doctrine of Free Will, which speaks to whether or not an individual gets to choose its ultimate fate, as YOU said. If you don't get that choice, then you have been preordained to your ultimate fate.

It's one or the other.

Why are you saying Angels don't exist in Heaven. From what form of Scripture have you based this on? I'm sure that consensus is that angels exist in Heaven. They can't die either, so there's no 'afterlife' for them to go too, which is what Heaven and Hell is for us.

[Ghel]

I think we're talking about the same definition of free will, just in varying degrees: being able to choose what you believe / choose your actions / choose your fate (whether you will go to heaven or hell, if you believe in those places).

Here's the kicker: if you choose to believe something you know to be false, that's hypocritical. The same if you choose to do something that isn't in line with your beliefs.

Fate, from my point of view, is a non-issue. Everyone's ultimate fate is the same: death. It's what you do with your life up to that point that makes all the difference. Anybody can have a positive influence on the world, if they choose. But if the Christian God and Heaven and Hell do exist, and God punishes those who lead good lives but didn't believe in him, then he is an evil tyrant in the extreme.

[Fryk]

They don't exist in heaven, they exist in hell or on earth, that is the crux of the problem. And I am talking about the doctrine of Free Will, which speaks to whether or not an individual gets to choose its ultimate fate, as YOU said. If you don't get that choice, then you have been preordained to your ultimate fate.

It's one or the other.

[Hobbs]

Hobbs is technically right about the Catholic doctrine of free will. However, it still doesn't make any sense when you try to apply it to angels. Free Will is the opposite of predestination, that we are all free to choose, and that God does not preordain anyone to hell.

HOWEVER, since according to Hobbs and others, angels don't have free will, that means that they would not free to choose salvation. In other words, they would have to be predestined to hell. In OTHER other words, that means God preordained demons.

Fryk, what are you talking about? Angels aren't predestined for anything. They simply exist. The Fallen are only demons because they rebelled against God and sided with Lucifer. They don't have to choose salvation because angels already exist in Heaven.

[Fryk]

Hobbs is technically right about the Catholic doctrine of free will. However, it still doesn't make any sense when you try to apply it to angels. Free Will is the opposite of predestination, that we are all free to choose, and that God does not preordain anyone to hell.

HOWEVER, since according to Hobbs and others, angels don't have free will, that means that they would not free to choose salvation. In other words, they would have to be predestined to hell. In OTHER other words, that means God preordained demons.

[Ghel]

Hobbs, I disagree with both your definition and your example. Free will is the ability to choose your actions. Whether you can choose what you believe is a separate question.

In your set of beliefs, if angels know that God exists, and know his nature, then how and why could they rebel?

Those in the military do have the right to believe the "birther" nonsense. What they do not have in so great a degree as the average citizen is the right to express their agreement with that nonsense. Their superior officers have no control over what goes on in the privacy of their own minds.