Has heaven been overplayed?

[Dark-Star]

I've been hearing since childhood about what a wonderful place heaven is supposed to be...we'll be all happy and 'ruling at the side of God' (from a bible verse) and a million other things....

But I'm wondering - has the whole thing been overdone?

A few reasons -

The ONLY thing I can see support for doing in the Bible is being eternal praise machines...
Pets not allowed anywhere I see.
No humans allowed to come back and give us the lowdown.
The Bible says there will be nothing bad there...including negative emotions and feelings. In essence: we COULDN'T be disappointed!
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[Norton]

I feel Heaven (and similiar concepts) is overrated. It's one of the reasons I no longer consider myself to be a religious person.

The religion I was raised in (Jehovah's Witnesses) doesn't believe in a heavenly afterlife for all the faithful. They believe a post-apocalyptic paradise Earth will be their reward. It's similiar to heaven in that there will be no sorrow or pain or suffering, and everyone will live forever.

Honestly, the thought doesn't appeal to me. Fist off, I happen to be quite content with life right now on this Earth. I find the Witnesses are often very unhappy living "in this wicked system of things", and live only for the possibilty of an eternal reward - I imagine there are people from other religions who feel the same. I find it sad that they hate this world we're in so much, and only wait for God to "fix" everything. This world can be great place, depending what you make of it.

Secondly, how can one experience happiness and joy without ever knowing the absence of them? What would be the purpose of a life/afterlife without problems to solve and obstacles to overcome? It seems as if it would be very boring to me.

In a comic by Jhonen Vasquez, he depicts Heaven as a bunch of faithful people sitting in chairs doing nothing with blissful smiles on their faces. They are happy and content, and so do nothing but sit and smile. That is what I imagine "perfection" to be like. Boring.

Besides, to be happy all the time in Heaven sounds like an absence of free will to me. Supposedly, God gave us free will which started all the problems on Earth in the first place. Taking it away so we can be happy all the time is our reward?

The whole idea of Heaven neither makes sense to me, nor appeals to me. (Don't even get me started on Hell.)

[AFPheonix]

Frankly, the absence of an afterlife doesn't sound too terrible, either. To just cease to exist means no more pain or sorrow, either. Either way, I don't really care. What will be will be.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'm an atheist and my belief is that after we die, that's it; we rot in the ground and feed the worms. That's why you live life now, rather than deprive yourself in order to earn brownie points for a heaven that doesn't exist.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I don't think the idea of heaven has been overplayed; however, the notion that certain groups of people seem to think that they and they alone know what heaven "will" be (or how you can get there for that matter) is definitely run into the ground.

I'm an agnostic, but I believe there is a God, and that there is a heaven and a hell. However, I just don't think that those are necessarily made up of all the stereotypical themes that are commonly presented in popular culture. Frankly, sitting around being an eternal praise machine would bore the (no pun intended) hell out of me. Not that God isn't worthy of thanks and gratitude, but I can't imagine that such a generous and creative God would stifle people like that and make them spend 24/7 in bowed prayer. I mean, hey, if that's what gives you jollies, then I'm sure God would accommodate that (assuming said God decided you got to end up in heaven) somehow. But depending on who you ask, heaven means different things to everybody and I'm sure that God being God knows this.

I would like to think that heaven, while it will contain certain things, would also have a kind of 'design-your-own' aspect to it. A friend of mine presented the idea that this current life is 'training' for the next one, in which we would get to learn how to manipulate matter that doesn't exist in this world. I rather like that idea. For me, heaven would not be heaven without the following things:

1) Family (the ones I actually do care for, that is. In my more generous moments I imagine that I'd let in even the asswipe relatives - so long as they stayed away from me - but that's another story.)
2) Pets, all kinds, past and present
3) Pizza
4) Friends
5) Anime
6) Seasons. I love snow. Deal with it. ^_^
7) Books of all kinds
8) Other things that are too numerous to mention here

On the other side, I think that hell will also contain certain things, as well as have a 'custom-design' to it - the difference being, however, that God will ordain that design depending on your sins. I believe that only the worst of the worst - child/animal abusers, rapists, murderers, politicians (only half-kidding there) will go to hell (and no, I really don't believe that any such who claims they've "found Jesus" actually has - if they had, they wouldn't have committed their crimes in the first place!).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: any god that would send people to hell for IMO stupid piddly shit like being gay, choosing a different religion (or no religion at all), eating certain foods or wearing particular pieces of clothing, being feminist, being a female leader of some type, being a drag queen, or anything else along those lines is *not* a god that I want any part of. I think that God is more concerned with how we treat each other than anything else (Jesus himself spoke more on the evils of poverty and the lust for wealth above caring for one's fellow humankind than he ever did on any of the so-called "value issues" of our time).

And - going on a slight tangent here - being that this is the eve of the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, I also don't believe that God would send a female to hell for having had an abortion. (Someone else who *forced* that female to abort against her wishes, however...) To me, it's one of those gray areas that only God and the person involved can ever really know the truth of, and I think that God would deal with it accordingly. (As an atheist friend of mine once put it, "is your faith really that weak that you can't handle the thought that just maybe God knows other people better than you do?")

So that's my chunk 'o change on that topic.

[Norton]

So you don't think God sends minor sinners to Hell - only rapists and murderers etc. But tell me, how does a loving God justify punishing a lifetime's worth of sins (70-80 years on average) with an eternity of Hell? Is God not capable of reforming people? The concept of Hell makes even less sense to me than Heaven.

I believe in God, but not a god like any found in organized religion. There is a guiding force to all things, but I doubt that force cares to micro-manage our lives, or punish or reward us for our actions.

I also believe in an afterlife. However, I believe the afterlife is not comprehendible to the living. The classic "we won't know until we die". Whatever the afterlife is, I have faith that it won't be unpleasant. It's one of the few things I have faith in.

[IDrinkaRum]

Well, there is always the Legend of Saint Oran, who was brother/son/companion of St. Columba in Iona.

I first heard the legend, interestingly enough, off of a CD done by Stephen MacDonald (he has 3 CDs one after the other to do with Scotland, the legends, what happened after Flodden & how some moved to Nova Scotia).

Anyways, the story is this: To build a chapel in Iona, St. Columba was convinced that a human sacrifice to the land was needed. St. Oran volunteered (either willingly or "militarily" volunteered). The night before he was buried, he & Columba spoke about Heaven and Hell. He was buried in a tomb, under the foundation. After 2 weeks, St. Columba opened the tomb to see how St. Oran fared (in some tellings, St. Oran pushed his head up through the floor of the chapel) and the only thing still working was his head/mouth.

The words out of St. Oran's mouth were:

"Heaven is not what it is said to be. Hell is not what it is said to be. The saved will not be forever happy. The damned will not be forever lost."

St. Columba was afraid Oran's body was inhabited by demons (or that he spoke the truth and didn't want anyone else hearing these truths) so he had the guy reburried deeper in the ground.

From a little research, reading, and looking at what Mr. MacDonald had to say about the Legend, it turns out what Oran meant was this:

Every thousand years, those in Heaven were sent to Hell and those in Hell were sent to Heaven so everyone would know how the other half "lived".

Now, I'm not saying I do or do not believe this. I believe that all religions are not right and that they are not wrong neither. If God was unhappy with one religion, it would have stopped being a religion. God gave his word to man, and then man ran with that word, and interpretted it to fit his view/the view of his family/friends/etc. We all worship the same God - we just won't figure that out until we all die.

[rahmota]

You make your own heaven and hell here on Earth. the fairy tales the churches push are just that stories. Its the old carrot and the stick method of scaring people into submissive obedience. Be a good little sheep and obey our dogma or you will spend an eternity of damnation and torment.

As far as I can tell and figure once you die its game over end of story lights out. Your brain rots and turns into jello taking everything that was you with it. There is no glowing soul ascending into the heavens or falling throu the ground into hell. I've been by the bedside when three of my family died and never saw anything to indicate otherwise. i have never read anythign that indicated otherwise unless it was published by a church.

Does this mean a person should be free to do whatever action they wish to do? No of course not. society itself would not acept that. Harming others is still wrong and bad regardless if there is a heaven or hell. Heaven and Hell are just neat little moral stories like Aesops fables designed to teach people to be good. Unfortunately the church just as usual takes thigns a bit too far.

[protege]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: any god that would send people to hell for IMO stupid piddly shit like being gay, choosing a different religion (or no religion at all), eating certain foods or wearing particular pieces of clothing, being feminist, being a female leader of some type, being a drag queen, or anything else along those lines is *not* a god that I want any part of.

Here's something else to think about. Most of the nutjobs claim that God created everything. If that's true, then he also created gay people, different religions, and other things that those fools rail about. Consider this too--they also claim that God loves us all. If that's true, would he *really* send someone to Hell for being something that He, created?

I'm not religious--maybe there is an afterlife, maybe there isn't. I do what I can, mainly following the advise given to Bill & Ted in a certain 1980s movie--Be excellent to each other.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I do what I can, mainly following the advise given to Bill & Ted in a certain 1980s movie--Be excellent to each other.

For a couple of dumb dudes, Bill and Ted were actually pretty smart.

Is God not capable of reforming people?

Of course - IF that person is open to actually being reformed. There are a good deal of scuzzbags out there that aren't and never will be. And nothing will ever change that. There have been interviews with some of the worst hardcore cases who have flat-out admitted that if they had the chance to do their evil all over again, they would in a heartbeat. Others have even warned authorities "if you don't lock me away forever or put me to death, I WILL go out and kill/rape/maim/etc. again." And history and statistics prove them right, sadly.

Maybe I am cynical, but I'm inclined to believe that once a person reaches that point where they willfully, even gleefully, commit such atrocities, and do so repeatedly, they just aren't redeemable, at least in this world. And in a way, it is a loss to the whole of humanity, because that person could have been something so much better...but they chose not to.

That's why I support the death penalty in cases where it's proven beyond all doubt that the accused is guilty of particular crimes. I just can't muster any sympathy for a human that decides raping women is a fun hobby or killing elderly people for their money is cool.

And yes, I am well aware of the Biblical "judge not" - but I think that has more to do with personal conduct that doesn't harm others and a lot less to do with punishing scuzzbags. 'Cause if it was up to me, I guarantee Old Sparky would be seeing a lot more use in regards to certain crimes, if ya know what I mean.

Well, there is always the Legend of Saint Oran

That's an interesting viewpoint as well.

[Bloodsoul]

In a comic by Jhonen Vasquez, he depicts Heaven as a bunch of faithful people sitting in chairs doing nothing with blissful smiles on their faces. They are happy and content, and so do nothing but sit and smile. That is what I imagine "perfection" to be like. Boring.

But.. it also had head-explody powers! O_O

I pray more for reincarnation than afterlife; I'll take the Earth over Heaven, even with all it's scum and dissapointment and hatred. There's still enough beauty here to be appreciated without looking down on it from some high cloud.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Regarding different viewpoints; I have to wonder if the reason for all the religious nuts getting so hot under the collar about Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy is the way he describes the afterlife. No heaven, no hell; everyone goes to the same place leaving part of their soul behind (the daemon) on the shores of the world of the living to spend eternity in a dull place populated by monstrous harpies.

That, incidently, was the belief of both the Greeks and Norse; that when you die, unless you've either done something spectacular or died in battle respectively, you end up in a boring, foggy place to constantly wander around.

Another literary view of the afterlife was described in Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy; the dead in her description of the afterlife have no feelings either way; they wander around aimlessly yes, but they don't know love, hate, lonliness or anything of their lives. I wonder if she received the same churchly batterings that Phillip Pullman did, when her books came out.