apparently Ree and Hobbs (and others) have committed a mortal sin

[BigGiant]

Also, I would say: Since it is okay for a husband and wife to have sex even if one is infertile, it would be okay for two men or two women to have sex, as long as it is an act of love.

The law of syllogism: If A>B, and B>C, then A>C....So if a man and a woman can have sex in wedlock as an act of love, then an man and a man can have sex in wedlock as an act of love.

[BigGiant]

Of course, if you don't care about having a sacramental marriage, then don't get married in the Church.

Exactly. I guess I wasn't too clear on my motives. I do not believe in making churches condone same sex marriage. They have the right to decide what is and is not allowed within their confines. I just like to question folks on their own beliefs, regardless of what the church preaches. (admittedly because I mostly believe that folks don't actually agree with a lot of what their faith preaches)

As for your question about carrying out God's will, God also said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." So again, who are we to start crying out "stone them!" for a sin of lust when that's something everybody struggles with?

This I struggle with...there are many instances in the bible where man is carrying out god's will....the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

Either way, thank you for this debate. I hope I didn't offend at all, as that is not my intent. I always enjoy good discourse, whether I agree or not.

Kudos!

[crashhelmet]

I believe there is a separation of Church and State, or rather I believe that there must be a separation. There are far too many faiths and beliefs to allow the State to make laws reflecting it or be influenced by it. Inalienable Rights would then be abused.

Marriage has become a government institution. With that, my opinion is that if they're married it's not sex out of wedlock. It's sex that's expected between spouses, and therefore not sinful. Some would argue that marriage is a religious institution, but if that were the case, then they'd need to dispute every marriage performed by someone outside of the Church. That includes JoPs, ship captains, and the Elvis impersonators in Vegas. Some could take it further and dispute all marriages performed by religious officials from different denominations or faiths.

God's Will for me and everyone else is two things. Live the lifestyle that God wishes of us and to love and support our fellow human beings. Not to spread hatred or condemn those that sin.

"Let he without sin cast the first stone." - John 8:7
"...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." - Matthew 22:39
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - Matthew 7:12(?)

CH

[Hobbs]

So,



There is no separation of church and state in your mind? Because we have been discussing religion, yet you say its "ok" or "greyed" if it is sanctioned by the state.

I think what he meant was, since it is allowed in those states, a larger population accepts them, and thus a broader majority of churches within those areas prescribe to sanctioning gay marriage. However, even in these states, populations are never 100% agreement with anything...leading to a "gray" area. Darn that democracy, letting people have different ideas!

This I can respect. Although I do have to question it a bit...doesn't God want you to support His will while you're on the earth? If you are to carry out God's will, it absolutely matters what you believe that to be, don't you think? I understand that God is the ultimate judge, but doesn't He want you to carry out His will? What exactly is His will on this issue- as you believe? And are you willing to carry it out?

Fixed it for you.

God commands that I, and the rest of us, "Love thy neighbor." To hate someone, or persecute someone, therefore, is contrary to God's commandment. As for His other commandments pertaining to myself, I have fully expected that I may be punished for eternity for the defense of my country. If that is God's will...my country is worth my soul. As my signature says, "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."

[Kheldarson]

I don't care about the church's take.

I don't toe the line for any organization, tbh...

What's your take?

And if it isn't a sin between a man and a woman (either of which are sterile) why would it be a sin between two women or two men? (not to mention that two women don't exactly penetrate one another...unless using other body parts also constitutes intercourse...which would mean that I sinned like crazy during HS...)

Any type of penetration of a sexual nature falls under the sin of lust. And the reason why a sterile married couple is considered outside the state of sin is simply because they can still have kids through God's will. Happened all the time in the Bible. Anyone of the same sex sleeping together can't have that happen, period.

Here's the definition of marriage according to the Catholic Church: Marriage is the intimate, exclusive, indissoluble communion of life and love entered by man and woman at the design of the Creator for the purpose of their own good and the procreation and education of children; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament (qtd. in Good News about Sex and Marriage by Christopher West from Canon Law, pg 46).

Of course, if you don't care about having a sacramental marriage, then don't get married in the Church.

As for your question about carrying out God's will, God also said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." So again, who are we to start crying out "stone them!" for a sin of lust when that's something everybody struggles with?

[BigGiant]

So,

My take is that the difference between permitting it between man and woman and not with a same sex couple comes down to one thing. Marriage. If the couple was one of the lucky ones that were able to marry in California, Mass, or where ever, then it's a gray area and a matter of semantics.

There is no separation of church and state in your mind? Because we have been discussing religion, yet you say its "ok" or "greyed" if it is sanctioned by the state.

To be perfectly honest though, my take, your take, or anyone else's take doesn't really matter. It is not my place to judge people and call them out on their sins. Only to recognize my own and do what I can to seek atonement. As a Christian, I believe that role belongs to God and God only.

This I can respect. Although I do have to question it a bit...doesn't god want you to support his will while you're on the earth? If you are to carry out god's will, it absolutely matters what you believe that to be, don't you think? I understand that god is the ultimate judge, but doesn't he want you to carry out his will? What exactly is his will on this issue- as you believe? And are you willing to carry it out?

[crashhelmet]

I don't care about the church's take.

I don't toe the line for any organization, tbh...

What's your take?

And if it isn't a sin between a man and a woman (either of which are sterile) why would it be a sin between two women or two men? (not to mention that two women don't exactly penetrate one another...unless using other body parts also constitutes intercourse...which would mean that I sinned like crazy during HS...)

My take is that the difference between permitting it between man and woman and not with a same sex couple comes down to one thing. Marriage. If the couple was one of the lucky ones that were able to marry in California, Mass, or where ever, then it's a gray area and a matter of semantics.

To be perfectly honest though, my take, your take, or anyone else's take doesn't really matter. It is not my place to judge people and call them out on their sins. Only to recognize my own and do what I can to seek atonement. As a Christian, I believe that role belongs to God and God only.

CH

[BigGiant]

Then again...and I know I'm being cynical, but still...we're really just talking about two men....

The hetero world doesn't really mind two women, let's be honest.

[BigGiant]

I don't care about the church's take.

I don't toe the line for any organization, tbh...

What's your take?

And if it isn't a sin between a man and a woman (either of which are sterile) why would it be a sin between two women or two men? (not to mention that two women don't exactly penetrate one another...unless using other body parts also constitutes intercourse...which would mean that I sinned like crazy during HS...)

[crashhelmet]

To be honest, I don't know the stance on medical sterilization. I would imagine that the Church is against it, but have never read anything on it that I can remember. I know that sexual intercourse is expected to occur between husband and wife and continue even after the wife is no longer able to naturally bear children. How it applies to that situation, I couldn't tell you.

CH

[Hobbs]

So since my wife had her tubes tied, anytime we have sex is a sin?

No, it's an act of lust. Pay attention.

[BigGiant]

So since my wife had her tubes tied, anytime we have sex is a sin?

[crashhelmet]

Also, can you explain this a little more?



It certainly wouldn't be lust for me...I'd have to have a whole bunch of burbon before I'd be able to complete the act, if at all....

Are you saying that every person is attracted to the same gender, but only their pious beliefs keep them from carrying out the deed?

I'd have to disagree with that.

Intercourse of any kind, without the purpose of being procreational, is an act of lust.

Define attraction in a way that generalizes it in that fashion. After all, some people are attracted to blondes, others to redheads. Some people like slender and/or toned bodies. Others like plump and/or curvy bodies. Asians vs Caucasians or in this case topic male vs female. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to someone or some type. Thinking about how you'd like to screw them until their toes curl, while they scratch their nails down your back, however, is lustful and therefore sinful.

CH

[BigGiant]

Also, can you explain this a little more?

Homosexual intercourse is a sin of lust.

It certainly wouldn't be lust for me...I'd have to have a whole bunch of burbon before I'd be able to complete the act, if at all....

Are you saying that every person is attracted to the same gender, but only their pious beliefs keep them from carrying out the deed?

I'd have to disagree with that.

[BigGiant]

*if it IS in *

whoops...