Something I think bares reading.

[Gravekeeper]

Statement of belief? What? "There's probably no God"? "There is no afterlife"? That's what you think people should be so upset about? Why?

You seriously don't grasp the problem? You don't see the ironic hypocrisy in acting exactly like the theists you so denounce, but saying its ok because you're right? ( You know, exactly like they do? ). No religious viewpoint should be advertised in a public forum. It should be a personal thing that does not extend beyond your friends, family and congregation/coven/cult/horde/D&D group.

After having been raised Catholic, and trying to strip myself of the vestiges of the faith, I still consider myself a recovering Catholic.

And your experiences are obviously global to everyone? I was raised Catholic too. I don't consider myself recovering in any way.

It took years for me to stop saying "Bless you" after someone sneezed. (Damned repetitive conditioning.)

...Are you serious? Practically everyone says that regardless of faith.

You may see arrogance in it, but I see someone trying to overcome an abusive relationship.

If thats how you see it, that's fine, but yet again that does not justify advertising a religious viewpoint on the side of a bus.

However, the idea that Jesus was the son of God is ridiculous.

Except I didn't say Son of God(tm) Jesus

Also ridiculous is the belief in a perfect God who needs to be worshipped. Or an omnipotent, good God who refuses to stop unnecessary suffering.

I also didn't say the fundementalist Christian God. All I said was "higher power". I also didn't mention Xenu. -.-

Maybe not, but it could be the catalyst that gets the person to actually think about what they believe and why.

Could be, but 95% of the time you're going to offend someone by belitting their believes. Have some respect.

I could also be a wakeup call to someone on the sidelines, observing the exchange.

Or you could piss them off too.

The nearest atheist organization to where I live is over 300 miles away. But you can't go three blocks without passing a church.

Your situation is not the global standard.

This is complete and utter BS. The point of practically every religion is to attract as many followers as possible. To fill the pews. To fill the collection plates. To breed more followers.

You are so completely wrong I'm not sure where to start. I have to go with Andara on this one. You're completely fixed on Christianity and Catholicism, and using that to make blanket statements about all religion.

Just because he may have said it doesn't mean it's so.

Wait, did you just argue *for* him being the son of God? >.>

What she had said isn't just about Xtianity; it applies to other religions as well.

Frankly, no it doesn't. Once you leave that primary sphere of Judeo-Christian-Islam things get quite a bit different. Also, things like Hinduism or Buddhism aren't obscure things no one has ever heard of.

[Ipecac Drano]

Jesus said that he was the son of man several times. It seemed an important distinction to him.

Just because he may have said it doesn't mean it's so.

Plus, nearly every blanket statement you make about "religion" is based almost entirely on Catholicism specifically and Christianity as a whole. You flat out ignore the many different recognized religions that actually eschew material wealth and have a goal of personal well-being. You're "religious" experience is very narrowly focused.

What she had said isn't just about Xtianity; it applies to other religions as well. Not to speak for her, but if I were to focus on Xtianity, I would do so as it is a religion familiar to most of us here. If I were to comment on some obscure religion it would be a bit more difficult to discuss.

[Andara Bledin]

However, the idea that Jesus was the son of God is ridiculous.

Jesus said that he was the son of man several times. It seemed an important distinction to him.

I don't particularly hold with the various interpretations that claim it was a way of distancing or claiming some form of title. Everything written about him was about him showing the rest of us how we could be, and if he wasn't as the rest of us, then how could it be expected that we could be as he was.

I see very little about religion that will encourage people to improve their lives and to be good here and now without the carrot of Heaven and the stick of Hell.

You're obfuscating the point with the agenda.

Plus, nearly every blanket statement you make about "religion" is based almost entirely on Catholicism specifically and Christianity as a whole. You flat out ignore the many different recognized religions that actually eschew material wealth and have a goal of personal well-being. You're "religious" experience is very narrowly focused.

I have already been born once, and quite sufficiently, I think. --G'Kar

It's not about the name. It's about the attitude.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

Or, I believe they can sometimes become "Born Again Christians". And their loudest spokespeople are Kirk Cameron and Stephen Baldwin, so....yeah.

Crockoduck!

Try "born again atheist," then. There is nothing like a 'born again' for going overboard and being unreasonable against the other side.

I have already been born once, and quite sufficiently, I think. --G'Kar

[Ghel]

You are completely missing my point.
...
So completely missing it. Those in no way "Advertised help". They made a statement of belief in the face of other's believes which no different then that which you rail against so much.

Statement of belief? What? "There's probably no God"? "There is no afterlife"? That's what you think people should be so upset about? Why?

"Recovering theist" is also a term rift with arrogance, frankly.

After having been raised Catholic, and trying to strip myself of the vestiges of the faith, I still consider myself a recovering Catholic. It took years for me to stop saying "Bless you" after someone sneezed. (Damned repetitive conditioning.) The threat of Hell was felt keenly for more than a decade, even though I knew it was an unreasonable guilt-induced threat (and not even real guilt - it was guilt over things that nobody should ever feel guilty about). You may see arrogance in it, but I see someone trying to overcome an abusive relationship.

The problem is your definition of ridiculous, which is quite liable to offend. Jesus riding dinosaurs is ridiculous. Jesus having existed as a real person is not. Nor is belief in a higher power. But they seem to be in your opinion.

Actually, I'm a Jesus agnostic. I don't think we can know whether a real historical Jesus existed (mostly because the Catholic Church has destroyed any evidence there might have been for the man on which the Jesus myth was based).

However, the idea that Jesus was the son of God is ridiculous. So are most of the miracles attributed to him (especially the fig tree incident - that one's hilarious). Also ridiculous is the belief in a perfect God who needs to be worshipped. Or an omnipotent, good God who refuses to stop unnecessary suffering. Or that everybody has pieces of multiple alien souls inside them trapped there by an alien overlord. I don't have a problem with anyone making fun of any of these beliefs.

I've also never seen anyone respond to mockery of their faith with "Oh, well, since you put it that way I'm totally wrong".

Maybe not, but it could be the catalyst that gets the person to actually think about what they believe and why. I could also be a wakeup call to someone on the sidelines, observing the exchange.

To the exact same places you would when changing your belief system to another? The phone book or the internet?

Good luck finding an atheist organization in the phone book. Or a local one on the internet. The nearest atheist organization to where I live is over 300 miles away. But you can't go three blocks without passing a church.

Plus the basis of practically every religion is to improve your life and be good here and now.

This is complete and utter BS. The point of practically every religion is to attract as many followers as possible. To fill the pews. To fill the collection plates. To breed more followers. To prepare the followers for an afterlife that they can't demonstrate exists.

I see very little about religion that will encourage people to improve their lives and to be good here and now without the carrot of Heaven and the stick of Hell.

[Andara Bledin]

"Recovering theist" is also a term rift with arrogance, frankly.

Or, I believe they can sometimes become "Born Again Christians". And their loudest spokespeople are Kirk Cameron and Stephen Baldwin, so....yeah.

Try "born again atheist," then. There is nothing like a 'born again' for going overboard and being unreasonable against the other side.

^-.-^

[Rebel]

Also, again, I agree with GK. I wonder if anyone's ever been called a "recovering atheist."

Or, I believe they can sometimes become "Born Again Christians". And their loudest spokespeople are Kirk Cameron and Stephen Baldwin, so....yeah.

[Gravekeeper]

I wonder if anyone's ever been called a "recovering atheist."

It's probably the politically correct term for a heathen these days. -.-

[Eisa]

^I like what one of the dissections points out in...First Bite. But a coven of Deity Knows What convened and a child of Satan was born and was a vampire and was off to destroy a Christian woman as his first victim... He looked like Alfred Neumann with fangs.

So it was like...heh, I need to just go find the quote.

Storot: So, gays are stuck in hell because you “can’t be gay AND Christian”, but vampires just have to say “I accept Jesus” and they’re good? “I’m a direct son of the Devil, who crawled out from Hell to devour souls and do his work!” “Oh, really? We can fix you right up!” “I feel FABULOUS!” “OMG DIE EVIL HOMO!!!” Talk about a double standard.

From: here



Also, again, I agree with GK. I wonder if anyone's ever been called a "recovering atheist."

[Hyena Dandy]

What on earth are these theists recovering from?

[Gravekeeper]

Yes, one book. Like the one that altered my thinking in such a way that I changed from callng myself agnostic ("I don't know.") to atheist ("Whether I know or not, I don't believe."). I wish I remembered which book it was.

Me too actually, might be an interesting read.

Of course not. Threatening eternal torture is not the same thing as saying, "I don't believe in your god."

....alright, point failing to penetrate there. Moving on.

The fact that there's no evidence for a worldwide flood is basic education. Or it would be, if anybody bothered to examine their own beliefs.

Many people do and others I'm sure do at least a few times in their lives.

These are the worst atheistic ads you could come up with? [sarcasm] It's no wonder Christians feel insulted by them. [/sarcasm]

You are completely missing my point.

How is advertising that there's help for recovering theists "sinking to the same level"?

So completely missing it. Those in no way "Advertised help". They made a statement of belief in the face of other's believes which no different then that which you rail against so much.

"Recovering theist" is also a term rift with arrogance, frankly.

Yes. It has, and it can. Even if it didn't, I still think it's fair for people to ridicule ridiculous ideas - which most religious ideas are.

The problem is your definition of ridiculous, which is quite liable to offend. Jesus riding dinosaurs is ridiculous. Jesus having existed as a real person is not. Nor is belief in a higher power. But they seem to be in your opinion.

I've also never seen anyone respond to mockery of their faith with "Oh, well, since you put it that way I'm totally wrong".

Its a simple matter of human respect.

With the atheist billboards, it's not so much a reminder, but an informing of people who might not have known that atheistic organizations exist.

With the Christian billboards, its not so much a reminder, but informing people who might not have known that Christian organizations exist.

Feel free to mix and match with any religion. How about Islam? That should turn a few heads as the bus goes by.

If you're changing from one belief system to another, there's help for you during the transition, but if you're changing from religion to atheism, where do you go?

To the exact same places you would when changing your belief system to another? The phone book or the internet?

So you think it's better to let people think that they're going to burn forever for something that their many-times-over-great grandmother did. Or perhaps you think it's better to let people be deluded into the comforting belief of an afterlife instead of doing things to improve their lives here and now. I still don't think it's disrespectful to correct falsehoods.

I'm not arguing for Christianity specifically. Plus the basis of practically every religion is to improve your life and be good here and now. Its not disrespectful to correct falsehoods, its disrespectful when we consider your broad definition of falsehoods.

That's something I think we can all agree on. Also, other religious tracts and pamphlets aren't much better.

Yes, the Dungeons & Dragons ones are still my favourite. >.>

[Ghel]

Books, perhaps, over the years. The original statement was singular however.

Yes, one book. Like the one that altered my thinking in such a way that I changed from callng myself agnostic ("I don't know.") to atheist ("Whether I know or not, I don't believe."). I wish I remembered which book it was.

That holds up when speaking about religious fundementalism. However, when you broaden it out to spiritual/agnostist, it doesn't hold up. Just because someone isn't religious, doesn't mean they're an atheist either.

I'll grant you this one, but only becauce I don't want to revisit the whole semantics argument.

So if I told you that you were going to burn in Hell in a lake of fire for being an atheist, that would be totally fine because I'm just being disrespectful to your viewpoint, not your person?

Of course not. Threatening eternal torture is not the same thing as saying, "I don't believe in your god."

One is basic education, the other is someone's belief system. Noah's flood may seem silly to both of us, but if thats what someone believe's in then fine.

The fact that there's no evidence for a worldwide flood is basic education. Or it would be, if anybody bothered to examine their own beliefs.

Let's try these instead: "Enjoy Life Now. There is NO afterlife" or "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

These are the worst atheistic ads you could come up with? [sarcasm] It's no wonder Christians feel insulted by them. [/sarcasm]

And before you start a "The other side does it" argument, just because there's Listen to Jeebus or Burn in HELL billboards, doesn't mean anyone else should sink to the same level.

How is advertising that there's help for recovering theists "sinking to the same level"?

Do you honestly think that will ever work?

Yes. It has, and it can. Even if it didn't, I still think it's fair for people to ridicule ridiculous ideas - which most religious ideas are.

We're just trying to remind the flock.

With the atheist billboards, it's not so much a reminder, but an informing of people who might not have known that atheistic organizations exist. If you're changing from one belief system to another, there's help for you during the transition, but if you're changing from religion to atheism, where do you go?

My point was not that they had a threat, but that they were informing people of what they should believe in a public forum. And its quite easy to interprete it as a negative message. "Everything you believe is a lie! Enjoy life!" is not a positive message. It's disrespectful of others.

So you think it's better to let people think that they're going to burn forever for something that their many-times-over-great grandmother did. Or perhaps you think it's better to let people be deluded into the comforting belief of an afterlife instead of doing things to improve their lives here and now. I still don't think it's disrespectful to correct falsehoods.

Not much of a response, but I firmly believe that Jack Chick is a whackjob.

That's something I think we can all agree on. Also, other religious tracts and pamphlets aren't much better.

[Eisa]

Not much of a response, but I firmly believe that Jack Chick is a whackjob.

As does this person

[Gravekeeper]

Just a quick comment. Yes, the number of public atheists in the US is very small, but we'll never know how many atheists choose to live "in the closet".

We can make a rough approximation by looking at how many are in Canada for example ( Where we're not so....yeah ). Which is to say a good portion more than the US, but still quite small.

BTW, I would argue that those atheist posters aren't so much aimed at theists, but closet atheists.

That's an explaination, not a justification. The other side could ( and likely has ) make a similar arguement. Its not aimed at anyone else! We're just trying to remind the flock.

Nope GK you're still wrong.
The example Ghel quoted contained a threat: eternal burning in hell. Neither of the new examples you quoted contain any threat, in fact they both contain the phrase "enjoy your life". If theists can somehow manage to convince themselves that that isn't a positive message, play them world's smallest violin.

You missed my point completely. My point was not that they had a threat, but that they were informing people of what they should believe in a public forum. And its quite easy to interprete it as a negative message. "Everything you believe is a lie! Enjoy life!" is not a positive message. It's disrespectful of others.

It worked for youtube's TheraminTrees. His transition to atheism began with the asking of a simple question: "Can you explain why you believe?"

The original statement was "Or it could be that the person was professing their faith, and somebody pointed out how ridiculous their statements were by making fun of them -".

I fail to see how the question "Can you explain why you believe?" is making fun of him in anyway.

[Hyena Dandy]

It worked for youtube's TheraminTrees. His transition to atheism began with the asking of a simple question: "Can you explain why you believe?"

That's not making mocking his beliefs, which was what Ghel was talking about.