Sexual Sins are Bull

[Rageaholic]

I didn't want to drift the hell thread too far off so I decided to start my own thread.

I think most sexual "sins" are a load of crap. There's some bible verse about how if you "look at a woman lusfully you've commited adultery in your heart". I've heard many different interpratations of what that means. Some say you should actually avoid entertaining any sexual thoughts about someone and others are more liberal, but I think the entire idea of thought crimes are bull. Doing and thinking is not the same thing. I can think about sex, but unless I actually do it, there aren't going to be any consequences. Same thing with masturbation. Unless it becomes some sort of addiction (in which case it only negatively affects you and is more of a mental thing than a moral thing), I see no reason why any god would have a problem with it.

But my biggest gripe, as stated in the hell thread, WHY WOULD GOD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE EQUIPMENT HE GAVE US? It seems so counter productive for god to be so offended by the natural urges HE PROGRAMMED US WITH. It's not our fault we get aroused by certain... imagery. It's how we were made. It's just... UGH!!

[Kheldarson]

It has to do with Original Sin. According to Theology of the Body (ToB), which is the currently accepted sexual theology of the Church, Original Sin was a twisting of our sexual natures. In Genesis 2:25, it reads that "The man and his wife were both naked, yet felt no shame", but after committing the first sin, Genesis 3:7 reads that "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves".

The moment of sin caused God's original gift for us, as seen in 2:25, which was an open sharing of sexuality, an innocence, to become shameful. It became wrong. Which is why we still have the issue of sexual sins. Sexuality is supposed to be about a give and take relationship that mirrors God's relationship with us. So the rules and prohibitions are supposed to help stop us from the perversion of that give and take...which is that we tend to use people. Sure, we get aroused by certain things. But a guy looking at a sexual image isn't thinking about the girl in question as a person is he? Or a gal reading a romance novel isn't considering the fact she's taking her emotional release from a source other than her guy, is she? We're using things, representations, to gain our own selfish release. Not sharing with someone else. That's the difference.

[Rageaholic]

But it's not hurting anyone!

Now I'll argue that sex taken to an unhealthy extreme can be damaging (particularly actresses being told to be super thin and having self esteem issues). It can devalue a person and I can see where that can be a concern. HOWEVER, I see nothing wrong with admiring someones body. Even if someones thoughts are... well dirty... as long as it stays in their thoughts, I don't see the harm.

That's another thing, thought crimes. I don't see how we can have freewill if we're going to be punished for merely thinking things. That would make me very paranoid! Actions have consequences, but mere thoughts don't.

[siead_lietrathua]

the original sin was not sex. original sin was disobedience. they were not kicked out of eden for bumping uglies, they were booted out for disobeying the word of their god.
and really even taking the idea you have, sex and nudity wasnt the sin, being ashamed of nudity was the problem. but its been twisted now that to fix the problem of us becoming ashamed is to become....more ashamed? it kinda got backassward.

[Eisa]

So what if now, you aren't actually ashamed of being nude? Does that cancel it out?

[Kheldarson]

the original sin was not sex. original sin was disobedience. they were not kicked out of eden for bumping uglies, they were booted out for disobeying the word of their god.
and really even taking the idea you have, sex and nudity wasnt the sin, being ashamed of nudity was the problem. but its been twisted now that to fix the problem of us becoming ashamed is to become....more ashamed? it kinda got backassward.

The original sin was disobedience and the consequence was the effect on our sexuality. And part of it is because we took a gift from God, our innocence, freedom, outlook on life, whatever, and tossed it in order to know more. So the consequence was an opening of our eyes and showing just how bad we can hurt one another. The worst way one human being can hurt another is generally through our sexuality. So much damage is done there because we give too much or take too much or not enough and that's the inherent problem. Nudity was just the symbol of all of it in Genesis. We kept ourselves completely exposed to one another until we realized how much we could hurt each other that way. So we covered ourselves. Clothing and lack thereof is just a symbol of that hiding away from each other.

[HYHYBT]

Setting sex aside and going with the general idea... wrong actions are only a symptom. That we are the sort of people who *want* to do what we ought not to is far more serious *if* the goal is eventually to perfect us.

[siead_lietrathua]

The original sin was disobedience and the consequence was the effect on our sexuality. And part of it is because we took a gift from God, our innocence, freedom, outlook on life, whatever, and tossed it in order to know more. So the consequence was an opening of our eyes and showing just how bad we can hurt one another.

although, the consequence was supposed to be death.
"17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

it was the serpent that said
"5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

so really, they should have died the same day.

[Mytical]

Depends on how you interpret that. Originally time was not a factor when in the garden of eden. Adam and Eve, like god, were immortal to the ravages of time..and probably all harm as well. The day they ate the forbidden fruit, they 'cursed' to die. Their immortality taken away from them.

As for sex being a sin..might want to understand that even if 'divinely' inspired (not saying the apostles were or weren't, that is another debate) the people writing the bible were human. The rules of the time, their own beliefs, and such entered into the bible. It is hard to separate what is 'government' law, the apostles law, and god's law. You pretty much have to figure that out on your own.

No man (or woman) will ever fully understand the bible. Would be like us trying to get a chimpanzee to read. We might eventually get SOME of the information across..but we would never know if they are actually understanding any of it.

People FEAR anything that is greater then them, and dismiss it if at all possible. Lack of proof, some confusion/not understanding, or since it is not something they can touch = the same fear mankind had about nighttime. They can't control it, can't understand it, so they have to control it..and if they can not control it..best to just ignore it, dismiss it, or try to lessen it by other means.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Coming at this from a different viewpoint:

Does it not make sense that if God did indeed create us, he built in us the desire for sex as a way to ensure the continued propagation of our species? If we didn't desire sex or if it wasn't as pleasurable, there would probably be far fewer people having children.

It makes sense from a biological standpoint, for me, a male in his early 30s, to naturally take a "look" at a healthy, attractive 28 year old woman. That "look" comes from a basic instinct to size up a potential mate. All animals have it.

I personally think that some people are careless when it comes to sex. Unwanted pregnancies, STDs, relationship changes, etc. There are many consequences of sex and it's important to be aware of them. I consider people who will sleep with most anyone convenient to be foolish individuals.

[Kheldarson]

^ This. That's the practical argument. We're a walking ball of hormones for a while and if we didn't have rules to try and keep it in check, how much damage would we do to ourselves and others?

[jackfaire]

it comes to sex. Unwanted pregnancies, STDs, relationship changes, etc. There are many consequences of sex and it's important to be aware of them. I consider people who will sleep with most anyone convenient to be foolish individuals.

What's annoying is a double standard held even among women.

If a girl has slept with more than a few people she will be considered a slut but if I mention that at 30 I have only been with 3 people then suddenly those same women look at me like there is something wrong with me.

[HYHYBT]

At 37 I get called a liar because I've been with none at all and will say so if pressed.

As for natural desires... well, eating is one too. But it's not a good idea to eat as much as you want, whenever you want. Some would eat too little that way; most, so long as food is available, will eat too much and often the wrong kinds as well.

[Sleepwalker]

Our attitudes towards food are extremely fucked up, too. It's just food. There are so many things that affect our health, the obsession with food choices is just... fucked up.

Sex is not a sin. 'Your' guy or girl does not own you or your genitals. If you are capable of cheating on your SO with YOURSELF, time for SO to reexamine their own control freakiness. If you are seriously obsessing about 'cheating' on a theoretical future SO with your own right hand... dude. Lay down the bible and get some fresh air.

[Mytical]

I was 36 before I even got as far as 'foreplay'. Still have never had intercourse..so there is that. Since the foreplay was long (think 2-3 hrs?), don't think I can claim 'virgin' anymore though. Sex, like nudity, is natural.