I'm not selfish, and I know why your wife left you (warning: TMI)

[s_stabeler]

It really depends on the priest, I suspect. Does the priest care more about their flock, or about banging on about the religion? Many priests care more about their flock.The more extreme ones care more about the religion.

[NecCat]

That's the polar opposite of what I was taught in a Catholic school.

I think it really depends on the parish priest. Ours was ordained as a widower when his kids were teenagers, even a decade later I think he was more in touch with how to teach kids than a lot of priests would be. Also I did most of my schooling in Quebec, one of the most simultaneously religious, catholic, sexual liberal part of the country. No, I don't understand how that works either.

[mathnerd]

I wouldn't agree with that, killing, lying, stealing and purposefully hurting others, it seems most of the things that churchs guilt you over are things that should cause you guilt because they hurt others. People just get all upset about the sex stuff because they disagree with what the church is telling them.

I think it depends on both the church and the religion too. I was raised lapsed catholic, but attended catholic school and the lectures on sex went like:
The will of god is that sex will occur between married people for the purpose of procreating, but occasionally people aren't able to perform gods will perfectly so ...(45 minutes on disease control, birth control, or respect for self and others) ... and remember everyone except the saints fail to live gods will perfectly so if you think it's possible you might find yourself needing more information on this before you are married you can get it from (local agencies, doctors, school counsellor).

Overall pretty non-guilty. As far as I know there was never any indication that masturbation was a sin, just reasonable warnings about hygiene and safety.

Straight from the nuns mouths that was.

That's the polar opposite of what I was taught in a Catholic school. Essentially we got "Sex is bad and women should only have sex because it's a necessary evil for getting pregnant and having kids. A pure, Godly woman doesn't enjoy sex, only submits to her husband out of necessity."

I was in for a huge culture shock when I went to a boarding school for the performing arts in high school, and sex, sexuality, and LGBTQ rights and acceptance were major cultural themes in the school. Hell the annual spring fling ended with a formal dance at which the highlight was a drag queen fashion show. It was eye opening for me, and started me on the path that eventually led me to separating from the church.

The final nail came when I condemned by many for getting my tubes tied after my third baby nearly took the life of both of us. I'd had complicated pregnancies, and they were getting more and more difficult. My youngest was born at 24 weeks after delivery was necessary to save my life, and nearly didn't work. Yet somehow I'm a bad and evil person because I took measures to ensure that I would be alive to take care of the kids I already have instead of risking getting pregnant again and depriving these three from having a mother.


As for the rest that was mentioned above, you don't need religion to know that killing people and hurting people is bad. That's basic humanity.

[cewfa]

I think it depends on both the church and the religion too. I was raised lapsed catholic, but attended catholic school and the lectures on sex went like: The will of god is that sex will occur between married people for the purpose of procreating, but occasionally people aren't able to perform gods will perfectly so ...(45 minutes on disease control, birth control, or respect for self and others) ... and remember everyone except the saints fail to live gods will perfectly so if you think it's possible you might find yourself needing more information on this before you are married you can get it from (local agencies, doctors, school counsellor).

Overall pretty non-guilty. As far as I know there was never any indication that masturbation was a sin, just reasonable warnings about hygiene and safety.

Straight from the nuns mouths that was.

See, I could live with that because it is realistic and honest, and pretty much the way my parents talked to me about sex as a teenager.

I'm starting to think that there are A LOT of false teachings in the name of Christianity out there, but that again is a whole 'nother thread.

[NecCat]

^

Me too. Fuck the guilt. Guilt is a toxic emotion and so is any church which exploits that to gain compliance. Most of the things they guilt you over are things which hurt no one.

I wouldn't agree with that, killing, lying, stealing and purposefully hurting others, it seems most of the things that churchs guilt you over are things that should cause you guilt because they hurt others. People just get all upset about the sex stuff because they disagree with what the church is telling them.

I think it depends on both the church and the religion too. I was raised lapsed catholic, but attended catholic school and the lectures on sex went like:
The will of god is that sex will occur between married people for the purpose of procreating, but occasionally people aren't able to perform gods will perfectly so ...(45 minutes on disease control, birth control, or respect for self and others) ... and remember everyone except the saints fail to live gods will perfectly so if you think it's possible you might find yourself needing more information on this before you are married you can get it from (local agencies, doctors, school counsellor).

Overall pretty non-guilty. As far as I know there was never any indication that masturbation was a sin, just reasonable warnings about hygiene and safety.

Straight from the nuns mouths that was.

[Rageaholic]

^

Me too. Fuck the guilt. Guilt is a toxic emotion and so is any church which exploits that to gain compliance. Most of the things they guilt you over are things which hurt no one.

[mathnerd]

Needing to delete some stuff. Thanks for understanding.

[wolfie]

Remember the words "sexual immorality" in the scriptures above are taken from an English TRANSLATION of a very old text. It's easy to lose or distort meaning in translation. This further muddies the picture of what exactly "sexual immorality" means.

Also, the translation into English was merely the latest in a series of translations, so what we're reading now is an Nth generation translation. The Islamic dogma that the original Arabic version of the Koran is the definitive version, and that translations are merely for the convenience of people who can't read Arabic, is good in that it avoids the whole "what did this mean before it was translated?" issue. AFAIK, there is NO surviving version of the Christian bible in the language in which it was originally written (i.e. no translation-induced changes of meaning). That's why the Dead Sea Scrolls are so important - they're a version of the Bible before the last few generations of translation.

Frankly, if there is an omnipotent creative force at the helm of the universe, I sincerely doubt it gives a shit whether or not some evolved monkeys touch their weiners or not.

If it does, it was pretty stupid of him/her/it to attach a litany of health and psychological benefits to it and let every other animal on the planet that can reach its own genitals do it in front of us.

The old "Why do dogs lick their balls? Because they can" issue.

[cewfa]

It isn't just Catholics, it is Protestants too. I go to a Protestant church.

I doubt very seriously God cares whether or not I wank. I've never felt bad about it, I just get pissed off when people make judgments of things they know nothing about.

[Gravekeeper]

2b: In addition to point 2a. I am also for health and safety reasons choosing not to be promiscuous and thus my solo act, as it were, is the safest sex I can have. There is zero chance of an STD and zero chance of an accidental pregnancy.

If God doesn't like it, then God will either allow a suitable woman to come into my life, or he will change my heart and my attitude on the subject.

Frankly, if there is an omnipotent creative force at the helm of the universe, I sincerely doubt it gives a shit whether or not some evolved monkeys touch their weiners or not.

If it does, it was pretty stupid of him/her/it to attach a litany of health and psychological benefits to it and let every other animal on the planet that can reach its own genitals do it in front of us.

The whole masturbation = evil thing is basically the Catholics, not the Bible. And the Catholics wield shame and guilty like a baseball bat to begin with.

[Gravekeeper]

The constant debates over whether or not masturbation is sinful are usually focused on what exactly is meant by "sexual immorality" in these scriptures.

Well, as you say, muddy translations.

"Sexuality immorality" is just how its translated in certain versions of the Bible. Other versions use "fornication" which is closer to the original translations and has specific definition ( Premarital sex, incest, bestiality, sex with someone who is divorced, etc ). The Greek root is porneia ( also the root of pornography as you may notice ) which basically just meant illicit sexual intercourse. IE when unwed, with your mom, with a sheep, etc. Masturbation is not included.

Really, the Bible has nothing to say on the topic of masturbation. The oft cited Onan spilling his "seed on the ground" and getting smited for it had nothing to do with masturbation.

This is also one of those things Jesus supposedly said that the various authors of the New Testament don't actually agree on. As each one basically gives his own list of what he thinks Jesus was condemning. Some of the lists get pretty ridiculously long. Its doubtful that if Jesus even decided to give a bullet point list there that he stood there and rattled off 11 items.

The core teaching here was simply it's not what you put in your mouth that defiles you but what comes out of it. Jesus was basically a social and political revolutionary trying to overthrow the system at the time, I honestly doubt icky sex things were a big topic of concern for him.

Now, the OLD Testament, it has a whole catalog of icky sex things it will stone the shit out of you for. So does Judaism. Wanking = Death in Judaism. That is not a translation or interpretation. Its pretty clear. Wanking = Death. There's even a specific term for it in Judaism ( "Zera levatala" ).

Personally I think the exact meaning of these scriptures should be left to personal interpretation. That's pretty much all we have when there's no clear right or wrong spelled out.

Well, no, they should be left to academic interpretation. Personal interpretation is what gets Christians into all these messes to begin with. >.>

[cewfa]

After giving this matter a lot of thought, I have come to these conclusions:

1: What I do, or don't do, with my body is none of their business. I am not joining in on no masturbation with these people. If they choose not to masturbate for spiritual reasons, that is their choice, and it doesn't concern me.

2: Most of the men in this group have strained marriages at best, and they freely admit to these. At the risk of sounding judgmental myself, when they fix their marriages they can tell me how "selfish" I am about masturbation.

2a: Speaking of selfish, I prefer to use the term "responsible". I know that due to what has happened in my life and my lifestyle, I am not cut out for marriage and definitely not cut out to raise kids. I would end up hurting both my wife and my children, if I was married with a family. Flying solo, as it were, is the most responsible course of action I can take.

2b: In addition to point 2a. I am also for health and safety reasons choosing not to be promiscuous and thus my solo act, as it were, is the safest sex I can have. There is zero chance of an STD and zero chance of an accidental pregnancy.

If God doesn't like it, then God will either allow a suitable woman to come into my life, or he will change my heart and my attitude on the subject.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Theologically, masturbation is a grey area. The question "Is masturbation sinful?" is a loaded one for any Christian to deal with. A lot of it focuses on two scriptures from the New Testament. One , a teaching of Christ from Matthew:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

The other, from Ephesians:

Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

You might notice both verses contain the term "sexual immorality". The constant debates over whether or not masturbation is sinful are usually focused on what exactly is meant by "sexual immorality" in these scriptures. Some Christians do not consider mastrubation to be sexually immoral, others do. The same can be said for anal sex and sex toys.

Personally I believe that masturbation can occur without lustful thoughts. I do not consider masturbation sinful. Being married, I usually approach it as "my wife always has first dibs on me". If she takes a pass for whatever reason then I usually end up looking after things myself (with her being aware of it).
I don't want my masturbation to get to a point where it would hurt the sexual part of my marriage. If it did, then I could see myself being plainly into sinful territory.

The question of masturbation as a single person is theologically more convoluted. Because if God says "Don't Masturbate" and He says "Don't have sex until you're married" then He's left no possible non-sinful avenue open for a single person to get a sexual release. Obviously even single people need release from time to time. Naturally the question becomes: Why would God wall us in like that?

Which leads us back to the debate over whether or not He actually did.

Remember the words "sexual immorality" in the scriptures above are taken from an English TRANSLATION of a very old text. It's easy to lose or distort meaning in translation. This further muddies the picture of what exactly "sexual immorality" means.

Personally I think the exact meaning of these scriptures should be left to personal interpretation. That's pretty much all we have when there's no clear right or wrong spelled out.

Our hearts are good guides. If something really is wrong or detrimental to our physical, spiritual or mental health, we're going to know it.

[Gravekeeper]

Didn't you know every sperm is sacred?

On penalty of death in Judaism, scarily enough. >.>

Well, I think I can give you some perspective on where that comes from.

You've got some things the wrong way around here.

The real issue with sex in Christianity is promiscuity. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife for the purpose of creating children is considered a good thing. Sex out of wedlock was bad; it created bastards that still needed to be cared for, damaged family alliances and endangered the property of the family or clan.

No, women weren't much better than property and treated as such. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife is a major theme to Judaism not Christianity. Also in Judaism, a bastard child, as it were, holds a different social status that limits their marriage options but are considered full relatives for the purpose of inheritance. But the status of being born from adultery or incest is considered hereditary and such a bastard's children will also be considered the same. So still sucks.

Here's the other thing too: In Judiasm, men could obtain divorces from their wives when they tired of them. The divorced women were often shamed and had few prospects, little property. Ancient Jewish laws actually protected women (women had a right to sex when they wanted it, but men didn't), but were largely ignored.

That's where Jesus came from when he spoke against divorced; he was actually supporting women's ancient rights in marriage.

Other way around. Judaism was the most accepting of divorce of the Big 3. It basically has no fault divorce which could be initiated by either or both parties. Judaism holds domestic harmony in high esteem and it was viewed as better to divorce than live in disharmony. A Jewish woman was not shamed for being divorced. A problem only emerged if she did not obtain a Get ( a document showing that she was actually divorced ). Which she needed in order to remarry without it being considered adultery.

A husband could withhold one to be vindictive ( but he likewise needed one too ) but the wife could petition whomever the local authority was who would then step in on her behalf.

When Jesus speaks of divorce, he specifically speaks against this Jewish practice and laws of divorce when he speaks against divorce and promotes one far more rigid.

Oh, and Jewish men were mandated to have sex with their wives on a regular schedule depending on their occupation. >.>

Christians often take what little the Bible says about sex too literally. The real point is to promote healthy relationships between men and women for the benefit of healthy families, to protect children, and to protect the tribe as a whole.

The word is seriously, not literally. Its quite literal about this. That is also not the point at all, no. Women were basically property complete with "you break it you buy" policies.

And while Judaism seems much more progressive about these things in ancient times, it has just as many insane rules about what you can and can't do with your penis as Christianity does. Death for masturbation, menstruating women basically being considered the single most unholy thing on the planet and not to be touched even under threat of death, etc.

But since modern society tends to frown on things like stoning and what not now, the throw backs that still cling to said dusty passages have moved on to guilty, shame, etc instead.

[Panacea]

I don't feel like masturbation is a sin, nor do I feel like God cares whether or not you or I masturbate.

Didn't you know every sperm is sacred?

As for Christians, I know that these gentlemen mean well, and this will not stop me from going to church. I like church and I like to hear the teachings of the pastor and to worship. I won't let anyone take that away from me.

Good, you shouldn't. I'm Catholic, and pro-choice and pro gay marriage. Is that consistent with Church teachings? No. Is it a sin? Depends on who you ask. Do I care? No. I like my faith, and I'm more worried about what I do than what other people do.

You know, in the 15 years I've been involved with church and Christians, Christians are the only people I know of that seem to be fascinated with what other people do with their bodies. It's starting make me a little uncomfortable. I almost want to ask these men if this is really about God and not some kinky fetish they have.

Well, I think I can give you some perspective on where that comes from.

In the days of the early Church, Christianity started attracting a lot of Greek converts. The apostles, after some debate, accepted these converts. What you ended up with was a cultural clash, because Hellenistic culture was very different from Jewish culture of the day when it came to sex. In addition, the earliest converts to the Church, and the apostles themselves believed that Jesus would return to them within their own lifetimes.

Sex was viewed as necessary only for procreation. If the world was to end, there was no need to procreate, and in fact to bring children into the world seemed cruel. Single converts were encouraged not to marry. Married converts were encouraged to be celibate to avoid pregnancy.

The real issue with sex in Christianity is promiscuity. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife for the purpose of creating children is considered a good thing. Sex out of wedlock was bad; it created bastards that still needed to be cared for, damaged family alliances and endangered the property of the family or clan.

Here's the other thing too: In Judiasm, men could obtain divorces from their wives when they tired of them. The divorced women were often shamed and had few prospects, little property. Ancient Jewish laws actually protected women (women had a right to sex when they wanted it, but men didn't), but were largely ignored.

That's where Jesus came from when he spoke against divorced; he was actually supporting women's ancient rights in marriage.

Christians often take what little the Bible says about sex too literally. The real point is to promote healthy relationships between men and women for the benefit of healthy families, to protect children, and to protect the tribe as a whole.

So bottom line: unless masterbation is done to the point where it interferes with healthy relationships or the daily business of life, there's really nothing wrong with it, and it is perfectly natural and healthy.