Community colleges

[protege]

I do all of those and he still insists I send him money.

I wonder what my mortgage holder would say to that? Probably something along the lines of "pay up, or GTFO"

[XCashier]

OK, why the hell do people have such a bad opinion on community colleges?

Snobbery and a superiority complex.

QFT. Honestly, I liked my CC. I learned a lot there, made many friends and had fun. Most of the people there were in similar circumstances to me, were paying for their own education and thus were serious about it.

I think the attitude, and this is just a theory, that a student who goes to a CC doesn't want to leave home and therefore isn't independent. Since this attitude of "Leave the home at 18 and become independent," is really prevalent in our society, people tend to judge people who decide to stay at home.

Some of us couldn't afford to go to a university or move away from home. Believe me, I would've liked to have done both, but Real Life doesn't always work the way you want it to.

My family was never well off. My original plan was to take as many courses as transferable at the local CC, earn an Associates, then transfer to the University and get a Bachelors. I worked, paid my own way, and my parents provided me with room and board as long as I was in school.

Sadly, the University plans got derailed. At least I do have an Associates, for what it's worth.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I can't speak for all universities or all colleges, so YMMV. But in my experience, community colleges and universities require such different skill levels that the two are not even comparable.

Perhaps things are different in Canada.

Boozy, I assume that you are saying that Canadian Universities have a much higher expectations of skill levels than community colleges do?


In the states, the gen ed classes at many community colleges are no different than the ones at the universities, except that they are cheaper, class size is smaller and community colleges are often heavily involved in the local community.

It's mostly a social stigma. Kids from poor/immigrant/disadvantaged familes are much more likely to go to a community college, because its cheaper and they can still live at home while attending. Middle class kids and their parents will often insist that they go striaght to a university instead of starting at a cc because of the social stigma, they don't want their children surrounded by kids from the inner city or the ghetto...

I remember being in high school and listening to this kid try to impress two very popular girls by going on and on about how much community colleges suck and how if he had to go to one he just wouldn't go to college at all because it would be too embarrassing for him. It was university or nothing. This is the attitude a lot of middle class people have.

[AdminAssistant]

In the states, the gen ed classes at many community colleges are no different than the ones at the universities, except that they are cheaper, class size is smaller and community colleges are often heavily involved in the local community.

Except the instructor is usually not as well educated as a university professor, and the entire college is structured similarly to a high school. Usually instructors don't even pick their own textbooks.

It's mostly a social stigma. Kids from poor/immigrant/disadvantaged familes are much more likely to go to a community college, because its cheaper and they can still live at home while attending. Middle class kids and their parents will often insist that they go striaght to a university instead of starting at a cc because of the social stigma, they don't want their children surrounded by kids from the inner city or the ghetto...

My upbringing was definitely lower/working class, and I still went to university and still managed to move out of the house. In my opinion, finances are not an excuse. There are too many opportunities if you will just LOOK for them. If you're poor, then you know you have to bust ass to do well in school and get a scholarship or qualify for federal grant money. My folks insisted on me going straight to a university so that I could improve myself and have a better education and opportunities than they did. They also wanted me to get away from the redneck culture that surrounded my high school and the local CC that pretty much everyone from high school went to.

It's not social stigma, it's a better education. You know why somebody teaches at a CC? They can't get a job at a university.

Oh, and my university does much more for the community, for the state, hell, the whole damn Plains/Midwest region, than any CC could do. (Besides, y'know, perfecting basketball. ) KU does so much for the community, besides being one of the largest state employers and bringing in tourist money. What does JCCC do for Overland Park/Olathe? Damned if I know. Yes, KU is an extreme example, being the state's flagship university, decently funded, and nationally recognized for academics and athletics. But I can say the same about my undergrad and master's schools. Both smaller, land grant universities, that offer a quality education. Small class sizes, professors of repute, varying levels of accreditation, decent facilities, affordable. Both very much involved with their local communities.

[Boozy]

Boozy, I assume that you are saying that Canadian Universities have a much higher expectations of skill levels than community colleges do?


In the states, the gen ed classes at many community colleges are no different than the ones at the universities, except that they are cheaper, class size is smaller and community colleges are often heavily involved in the local community.

If that's the case, then the US system and the Canadian system are completely different.

Canadian community colleges generally take the full first year to cover material that is covered in the first month at the university level (if the university covers it at all). They teach first-year college students how to write papers, for example. They don't do that in university. You need to know how to write a research paper going in, or you aren't qualified to start.

There is just no comparison between a general arts diploma and a Bachelor of Arts, or a business diploma and a Commerce degree.

However, Canadian colleges are very good for specific career and/or supplementary training, such as skilled trades and post-graduate diplomas for university grads.

My husband has a BA in Criminology, and then attended college for post-graduate training in his chosen field. His current employer prizes his BA highly, but the post-grad college work gave him the edge.

[McDreidel09]

I'm with ya there, Admin. My family is not well off, but I pushed myself to get out of my town. So, I have to put myself in debt with the government, but in the end, it's going to be worth it for me. I am going to be the first on my dad's side of the family to have a college diploma. My grandma didn't finish high school. My mom is taking a few college classes to work towards her diploma, but at this rate, I will have mine before she gets hers. To me, making my family proud, making a better life for myself, and setting a good example for my sister is worth having to pay off my debt for a while.

[smileyeagle1021]

Except the instructor is usually not as well educated as a university professor, and the entire college is structured similarly to a high school. Usually instructors don't even pick their own textbooks.
.

I know university classes where the text book isn't chosen by the professor and CC classes where the professor WROTE their own book. I'd also point out that education and experience are two different things, and while most university professors do have more education, most of the CC instructors I've had were retired from the field they taught in. Let's be honest, I'd much rather learn about governmental accounting from the person who worked for the State of Utah for 20 years but only has a bachelors degrees than the person who has a CPA certificate but has never before worked in the field.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

it's a better education. You know why somebody teaches at a CC? They can't get a job at a university.

I would beg to differ. I've attended uniiversity, community college, and a very elite private college (I am a serial student, what can I say.) My experience of university was of gigantic classes, all lecture based, which were actually taught more by grad student assistants then the professors. It was extremely difficult to get any attention from them if I had a question or an issue, as they barely understood the material themselves. None of the professors I had ever seemed to be all that interested in teaching, they always seemed to be more focused on research, books, or projects they were working on.

I am now attending a community college, and most of my teachers only teach part time because they all actually have full time jobs in their field. I have learned more from them than I ever did from the university professors, and I doubt that any one of them would ever be interested in teaching at the university level, because they seem to enjoy being hands on and working closely with the students, which our small class sizes make possible. I have noticed that all the teachers in the department tend to work closely together as a team to give the students the best education they can in a dymanic and rapidly changing field.

I recently went to a lecture the head of our department gave. She got to go to this special week long workshop for educators put on by the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences along with a handful of other teachers and department heads from other schools. She discovered she was the only educator not from a 4 year university there. As the group got to know each other, most of the others spoke of labs with 5 or 10 computer stations for their students to work at. Beth got to tell them that her little community college multimedia department has FIFTY state of the art Apple workstations, all installed and completely updated every year by actual Apple employees, which she proudly told us impressed them to no end, along with the fact that a number of our teachers are actualy employees of companies like Adobe Systems and Intel.

Community college are often times some of the best kept secrets in a community, and I find it sad that so many people have this attitude that they are nothing but glorified high schools.

[elsporko]

Based on your experience in university it sounds like you only attended 100 or 200 level classes. Once you get up higher you get smaller classes and more times with professors.

[smileyeagle1021]

Based on your experience in university it sounds like you only attended 100 or 200 level classes.

Which is a fair comparison though for this discussion. As it is that so many use the community college system as a gateway to the university system and take all of their 100/200 (1000/2000 in Utah because our numbering system is whacked) at the CC before transferring into the university.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I had not read the other recent thread about community colleges. Wow. I thought I had left that attitude behind when I dropped out of St. John's, and yet here it is again.

To address Draggar's original query:

The phenomenon you encountered in that thread is a well documented one, and depending on what level of academia it manifests in, it is given different names. At the highest levels it is called the Ivy League effect. A great example of this is last year's arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. Liberal bloggers and news journalists wrote of their surprise at how little outrage it garnered in the African American community, and how much outrage it garnered in Ivy League circles. There was a penetrating article written here where an anonymous black ivy leaguer stated that Gates was not a victim of racial profiling, but that he was suffering from the Ivy League effect.

In the academic circles below Ivy League---like flagship universities---it is referred to as academic elitism. Conservatives despise it, as people in higher academic circles tend to be very liberal, and it is often the basis for conservative accusations of liberal elitism.

There has also been some argument that this attitude among higher academics is part of the reason anti-intellectualism is so strong in middle America: that being highly educated and knowledgeable about the world is not much valued in mainstream American culture because it has this very negative association with 'professors in their ivory towers'.

I experienced it at both the univerity I attended and the private college. In fact it was one of the main reasons I left the private college, I encountered it in both the teachers and the students and it drove me batty. In my personal experience, people who have this attitude not only look down on average Americans as uneducated buffoons, but they tend to reserve a special contempt for community colleges and their students---they feel that students at cc's are there because they 'weren't good enough' to get into a university and had to settle for a lesser education---in other words, that cc students want to be just like them, but are too inferior.

[Android Kaeli]

finances are not an excuse.

If finances are not an excuse, then I have the worst possible excuse ever: In order to survive on the most basic needs, I can't afford to go further my education. To get a better job I need more education, unfortunately any possible means of this will restrict my hours at work and greatly reducing my ability to survive on these basic needs. I need these hours at work in order to pay for my bills, to keep a roof over my head, and to keep food in my stomach.

Scholarships and federal aid are out of the question. Why? The only scholarships I even have a remote chance to get, I won't because I make too much money ( just slightly above the poverty line is classified as "making too much money a year" ). Federal aid? Can't get that, I still make too much money a year. Student loans? No thanks, I don't want those haunting me for the rest of my life just to go study at some big-name university to get a piece of paper that most likely won't ever come into good use anyways.

So, no, finances are not an excuse to going to school. If one is unable to pay for their education because they just CAN'T for some reason or another, then they just can't.

[AdminAssistant]

In my personal experience, people who have this attitude not only look down on average Americans as uneducated buffoons, but they tend to reserve a special contempt for community colleges and their students---they feel that students at cc's are there because they 'weren't good enough' to get into a university and had to settle for a lesser education---in other words, that cc students want to be just like them, but are too inferior.

I don't look down on the average American, and how many times do I have to say that I come from an extremely poor background? I'm not alone, many of my colleagues are from working-class families that have worked their way up through academia. We aren't elitist. I just hate to see the trend of students throwing two years and money at some podunk community college and then transferring to a 4-year school and finishing there. It bothers me, deeply. A 4-year university is one that is designed for people to go there for...4 years (sometimes 5). Degree programs are often set up so that people start taking classes in those majors their freshmen or sophomore year. A transfer student will spend those 2-3 years playing massive catch-up.

Student loans? No thanks, I don't want those haunting me for the rest of my life just to go study at some big-name university to get a piece of paper that most likely won't ever come into good use anyways.

Student loans are daunting and frustrating. I try to think of it as an investment. But, I just have to. In order to teach college, I have to have a terminal degree, and getting my master's just killed me financially. (Never EVER go to a graduate program that won't at least waive your tuition.) It's much better now, but I still have that old debt hanging around. I personally get frustrated at the Federal government for not at least considering post-graduate students for Pell Grants. I didn't get any Pell Grant money for my undergrad, and now I don't qualify just because I'm working on a secondary degree.

It doesn't have to be a big-name university. (The only reason I am going to a big-name university is because they made me the best offer.) There are so many small state universities that are really good, and yes, better than a CC. Affordable, small class sizes, everything that you guys keep saying about CC's, except you can actually get a Bachelor's that IS worth something. There are fields where a Bachelor's can really give you the edge, especially in the sciences and technology-related fields.

I will say that I am not against Vo-Tech schools, and think that those are great for someone who wants training for a specific profession. If you want to be an electrician or a plumber or a mechanic...etc...then, yeah, why WOULD you go to a university? Go to a Vo-Tech, get your certification, and then get out in your field. That's not my grief. My frustration comes from CC's saying they are an equal option to a University education. I just don't see it.

[smileyeagle1021]

We aren't elitist.

no, you just think because the school I go to ends with CC instead of U I receive an inferior education, that I obviously didn't work hard enough in high school, and wasn't ready to start my own life. (All of those things are comments either you or McDriedal have made about CC students).
For the record, I was accepted into a University, on scholarship no less. The reason I'm not there anymore was because I decided I knew better than my adviser and that I didn't want to start with algebra/precalc and wait until my second year to take physics... no, I just got a scholarship, that means I'm intelligent and can easily handle calculus and physics first semester. Sadly intelligence and hard work does not understanding of the foundation subjects make. Scholarship rules were no less than a 3.0 average and no classes less than a C, I got a D in calculus (which is to be expected when one hasn't taken precalc) and they said bye-bye.
Every school ending with a U said "sorry kid, you fucked up, we don't want your type here, we hear that you can make a decent wage at convergys, that is your life now", the CC said "hey, people make mistakes, if you're willing to work hard, we're willing to let you in and help you." Yes, there was a four year school that would take me... Dixi State College would have taken me, but that would involve living in the Utah Dixie which as a gay man may very well be a death sentence.
So tell me, because of my arrogance do I truly deserve a life of votech being the best I can hope for or will you admit that CCs have their place.
If you say the first, then sorry, you do look down upon "the average American" and do have somewhat of an elitist attitude, if you say the second then apology accepted.

[Rageaholic]

Word smileyeagle!

How is going to a community college wasting money? If anything, it's the opposite. My plan is simple, take the GE requirements needed to transfer at the CC and than transfer to a university. Who cares if the professors at the university are better trained? It's just the GE requirements, you know, those pesky courses everyone has to take that has nothing to do with your major. Yes, they actually offer them at community colleges and *gasp* allow you to transfer them! Why is that such a horrible thing?

If potential employers think that because I didn;t want to spend 10s of thousands of dollars on a university, that I am inferior, than they can go fuck themselves. I don't want to work for those people anyway. Not everyone is an acedemic, not everyone can deal with the pressure of having to get straight A's in everything. I have my own skills, but sadly, society demands that we have a college education to get a decent paying job. While I am sure there are benefits of taking those GE courses at a university, I see no reason why people who take them at a community college should be sidelined.