9 students charged with bullying that lead to a suicide

[Hobbs]

If we were talking about a contingent of students from Plaidman's school getting into a fistfight as a result from skulking around a different school LOAC may well be a potential analogy to draw. I assumed what you meant was ROE because it's a much closer fit (involving only a few people) while still addressing the basic questions. Under what circumstances can one fight back? How can they go about doing it? To what extent can they fight back? All of this being person on person as opposed to theater-scale area-based thinking along the same lines (LOAC)

May I ask who taught you how to use pressure points in 2nd and 3rd grade? And how is learning to inflict maximum damage with your bare hands any different than using an implement (I myself resorted to using a textbook on a couple of occasions) to inflict more damage? Or, in this case, psychological damage?

I was unarmed. The moment you use weapons you escalate the incident. I really hate repeating myself here.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I was unarmed. The moment you use weapons you escalate the incident. I really hate repeating myself here.

In the context of a bar fight or other combat between two implicated individuals, maybe. But what I'm saying is that:
A) Use of weapons for self-defense is not only a standard equalizer, but encouraged and legal.
and
B) The instigator is responsible for causing the incident and thus the outcome, both legally and IMO morally.

I don't like having to repeat myself either. CQC training is all good and well, but it can only do so much. If protecting one's self requires stepping up to sub-lethal weapons in order to end a confrontation in the same way a lethally armed situation can be ended with a firearm, what's the big deal?

Part of self-defense and LE doctrine deals with escalation of force. Which handles the proper incrementation of force starting at none, to bare hands, non-lethally armed, threat of lethal and application of lethal. The only time moving another rung upwards is unacceptable is the lethality barrier when done against a non-lethally armed/capable attacker.

[Hobbs]

You never mentioned the use of non-lethal force. So you're not repeating yourself. Pray tell, what's a non-lethal weapon? There are only less-than lethal weapons, which can inflict serious injury or death.

[smileyeagle1021]

Grow stronger.

There is no way to be strong enough to take on large number of people by yourself... I would LOVE to be able to be strong enough to take on 6 people at once and have it be a fair fight (6 people was the standard group that came after me)

I was unarmed. The moment you use weapons you escalate the incident. I really hate repeating myself here.

As before, on 6 to 1, bringing out a weapon isn't escalating, it is evening the odds.

[Hobbs]

There is no way to be strong enough to take on large number of people by yourself... I would LOVE to be able to be strong enough to take on 6 people at once and have it be a fair fight (6 people was the standard group that came after me)



As before, on 6 to 1, bringing out a weapon isn't escalating, it is evening the odds.

I wasn't talking about your case. I was discussing with Plaidman, which was a 1:1 incident.

[Lace Neil Singer]

So I take it you're willing to effect a mass-killing such as Columbine and subsequent schools? Injuring people who's only crime was that they couldn't get out of the way of the bullets? Sorry, but if that's your line of reasoning, I can't be sympathetic to you.

Might I point out that the idea that victims of bullying are behind all school shootings is in fact a myth?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/

Myth No. 5. “He was a loner.”
In many cases, students were considered in the mainstream of the student population and were active in sports, school clubs or other activities.
Only one-quarter of the students hung out with a group of students considered to be part of a “fringe group.”

Also, school shootings are a rare occurrance. It doesn't happen very often; if it did, it would no longer be news.

Myth No. 10. “School violence is rampant.”
It may seem so, with media attention focused on a spate of school shootings. In fact, school shootings are extremely rare. Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S. In general, school assaults and other violence have dropped by nearly half in the past decade.

[Nyoibo]

I am perfectly capable of accepting people using force to defend themselves, but as I've said before, unproportionate force is not acceptable. We can't carpet-bomb a town to take out a couple of insurgentsl; weapons can't be used against unarmed personnel.

The absurdity of that statement from someone in the U.S. military is hilarious.

(If you're not U.S. military, I apologise. )

I was unarmed. The moment you use weapons you escalate the incident. I really hate repeating myself here.

Bull, I'm just as capable of killing someone with my bare hands as with a weapon, I know dozens of people who are the same and have been trained the same as me, it doesn't escalate a fight, if you attack me I take that as a threat to my life and will use whatever means necesarry to put you down whether you have a knife, gun or bare hands, the only thing that has any bearing on what I do is what's needed to put you down.

[Hobbs]

I am a member of the United States Air Force. What exactly do you find wrong with my statement, eh?

Using weapons, in the legal sense, escalates a fight. Yes, some people are taught lethal forms of unarmed combat. Actually, at the point of knowing that someone has such lethal skills, its legal to draw a weapon and kill them, since you have reasonable doubt that they have the skills to kill you.

Lace Niel, I was talking about Plaidman's earlier statement of bullied students coming armed to school to "teach bullies a lesson." As for not all the kids being loners, the V-Tech student was, and certainly the two shooters from Columbine were.

[Nyoibo]

I am a member of the United States Air Force. What exactly do you find wrong with my statement, eh?

unproportionate force is not acceptable. We can't carpet-bomb a town to take out a couple of insurgentsl; weapons can't be used against unarmed personnel.

That bit, I figured it was self explanatory, but this from a member of the armed forces of the only country to use nuclear weapons, against unarmed civilians no less.

[Plaidman]

That bit, I figured it was self explanatory, but this from a member of the armed forces of the only country to use nuclear weapons, against unarmed civilians no less.

In Hobbs defense, that was 55 years ago. Can't really blame military now for the actions of their grandparents.

As for bringing guns to teach bullies a lesson? Yeah. I still stand by it. Sometimes that is really the only fucking way to get them to back off if teachers won't do a damn thing, and you can't find or afford training to learn pressure points. Even then, that takes skill and if you attempt to do it, you could easily get the wrong spot, and have the bully grab you, and slam you face first into the ground and or wall.

Which hurts. Chip a tooth during that. Had slight concession. Kid had to say sorry to me, which he did while rolling his eyes. That was his punishment.

Maybe I should teach my kid to bulk up in muscle and beat everyone down, seeing as bullies don't get punished period.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Lace Niel, I was talking about Plaidman's earlier statement of bullied students coming armed to school to "teach bullies a lesson." As for not all the kids being loners, the V-Tech student was, and certainly the two shooters from Columbine were.

A plastic gun is hardly being "armed". And I said that most people are under the impression that ALL school shooters are loners. A few swallows doesn't make a summer and a few bad apples doesn't prove that the whole bushel is rotten.

[Hobbs]

A plastic gun is hardly being "armed". And I said that most people are under the impression that ALL school shooters are loners. A few swallows doesn't make a summer and a few bad apples doesn't prove that the whole bushel is rotten.

I never said that. And we have been specifically discussing Plaidman's claim that he wished his toy gun had been real and he shot someone. I think me and him came to a mutual understanding of that particular instance, however.

Most people, is not all. Certainly not me. As aforementioned, we were talking about a specific incident.

[Hobbs]

In Hobbs defense, that was 55 years ago. Can't really blame military now for the actions of their grandparents.

As for bringing guns to teach bullies a lesson? Yeah. I still stand by it. Sometimes that is really the only fucking way to get them to back off if teachers won't do a damn thing, and you can't find or afford training to learn pressure points. Even then, that takes skill and if you attempt to do it, you could easily get the wrong spot, and have the bully grab you, and slam you face first into the ground and or wall.

Which hurts. Chip a tooth during that. Had slight concession. Kid had to say sorry to me, which he did while rolling his eyes. That was his punishment.

Maybe I should teach my kid to bulk up in muscle and beat everyone down, seeing as bullies don't get punished period.

Thanks for that first statement Plaidman. Everytime I mention LOAC, someone with no idea on military strategy brings up the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Its because of lessons learned in that war (Dresden and Tokyo firebombings as well) that LOAC exists. It's also why we use precision-guided weapons more and more. It's quite hard to find a 'dumb' munition in our arsenal nowadays.

Plaidman, I didn't pay anyone anything about pressure points. I learned it from my brother, actually. He has a knack for knowing how to fight back. In the 3rd grade, he stopped a bully by biting him and drawing blood. I also would find it very sad to see you teach your son/daughter to be a bully. All you'd be doing is bringing suffering upon the other "you's" of the world.

[Nyoibo]

It's quite hard to find a 'dumb' munition in our arsenal nowadays.

There are no dumb munitions, just dumb ways to use them, at least that's what my dad would say.

[Plaidman]

Plaidman, I didn't pay anyone anything about pressure points. I learned it from my brother, actually. He has a knack for knowing how to fight back. In the 3rd grade, he stopped a bully by biting him and drawing blood. I also would find it very sad to see you teach your son/daughter to be a bully. All you'd be doing is bringing suffering upon the other "you's" of the world.

How about just bullies, which is what I really want. That old statement that some teachers told me to /calm/ me down, is one day my bully would pick on someone bigger and stronger then them.

Well, I've been told sometimes I have a hero complex. It be awesome to see my son defend people from bullies.