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  • stereotyping criminals and crimes

    Don't worry, this has nothing to do with Christians or Republicans, try not to faint

    I bring this up because today I was watching a documentary "The Hidden Fuhrer. A debate about Hitler's sexual orientation" (I think that was it's exact name, I may be off a bit). Very fascinating documentary actually. They did have a convincing case that Hitler may have in fact been gay, and that his self hatred may have contributed to what he ultimately did. (for the record, I am fascinated by the rise and fall of Hitler, I feel it very important to understand how a boy from a very unimportant family in Austria, who grew up dreaming of becoming an artist, turned into the most infamous dictator in modern European history, to insure that we can prevent it from happening again).
    What fascinated me though was the extra features on the disc talking about whether or not we should even discuss the matter because if it were proved that Hitler were gay it would demonize homosexuals even more than they have been by the fundamentalist right. They argued that merely by pointing out that Hitler was gay would justify people's feelings of nazi=evil, nazi now = gay, therefor gay=evil.
    They do bring up something of an interesting point in that people seem to latch onto the orientation of a criminal a lot. If a pedophile is gay immediately you'll hear people saying "oh, see, I told you those gays are pedophiles" (yet oddly you would never hear someone say after a heterosexual molests a child saying "oh, see, I told you those heteros are pedophiles"). I'm curious why it is that despite the majority of offenses being committed by heterosexuals, pedophilia has been labled a "gay crime"
    I've seen the same thing with black people and robbery. "oh, a black man robbed a 7-11, go figure."
    Ditto Latinos and gang violence, "oh, look another mexican was involved in a gang shooting, what else is new"

    So, were those historians right... looking at just how much we stereotype crime as a society, would proving the orientation of Hitler do anything other than build yet another stereotype?
    "I'm Gar and I'm proud" -slytovhand

  • #2
    Not much of a debate on my part I know but I have to agree with you everything you said....and I think it would equate gay people with evil if hitler was found gay. People being closeted and bashing gay people when they were gay themselves hasn't helped anyone out.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/HedgeTV
    Great YouTube channel check it out!

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    • #3
      Sadly the nut jobs will use anything against a group they hate. I am like you Smiley.. I find that Hitler is an interesting subject.. because if you described what he accomplished minus the genocide.. people would say that he was a great politician and leader.

      I believe that instead of going.. Hitler was gay therefor gays are evil.. I see it more as the evil was caused by society teaching gay = evil therefor his self loathing caused him to strike out at that which made him "abnormal".

      However since I am an odd duck... I know that society isnt ready to see that we cause a lot of harm by demonizing that which we really shouldn't.

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      • #4
        Intersting side question: should we surpress the truth about something because it might make others uncomfortable or look bad?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Fryk View Post
          Intersting side question: should we surpress the truth about something because it might make others uncomfortable or look bad?
          Why not? Alot of Christians don't seem to realize that Jesus wasn't white, but Iraqi.
          Toilet Paper has been "bath tissue" for the longest time, and it really chaps my ass - Blas
          I AM THE MAN of the house! I wear the pants!!! But uh...my wife buys the pants so....yeah.

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          • #6
            Most of the large gangs in my city are Latino. So if you say, "Look, another lil Mexican gangbanger," you're probably right in the description.

            That said, not all gangs in the city/country are the same, so labeling a crime or behavior as [race] is messed up.

            Plaid, how was Jesus Iraqi if he was born in a country that's not modern-day Iraq. Yes he probably looked Middle-eastern, but Middle Eastern=/=Iraqi. Perhaps you're thinking of the Garden of Eden.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Fryk View Post
              Intersting side question: should we surpress the truth about something because it might make others uncomfortable or look bad?
              to add to Plaid, why not, we do it all the time?
              How many people know that the United States had concentration interment camps during World War 2 (it's becoming more common knowledge now, but I wasn't taught about it during high school).
              Plaid already pointed out that pesky little fact that Jesus wasn't white.
              The Mountain Meadows Massacre is almost never taught about in its entirety, nor is a lot of the history with the American settlers in the west.

              Let's look at the stuff that has been investigated and widely taught that has been misused.
              The history of Feudal Japan and their religious practices, while mostly accurate what they reported, was used to demonize the Japanese and justify targeting civilians later in the war and the internment of thousands of US citizens of Japanese decent.
              The history of conflict between native american tribes was used to justify classifying them as savages which resulted in their forced relocation to reservations.

              There is something to be said about suppressing information until such time that you know society is ready to know it and won't misuse it. At this point in time, I have no doubt that if it were proven that the Fuhrer were a repressed homosexual (which should lead people to conclude that homosexuals shouldn't be repressed) would lead to only further repression against homosexuals for punishment for the Fuhrer's actions.
              "I'm Gar and I'm proud" -slytovhand

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              • #8
                I was taught about it in high school. I actually think I knew about internment camps earlier than that...oh right! I remembered. I learned when I heard it mentioned in the Karate Kid and then did my own research to find out the truth. Yeah it was wrong, but we didn't systematically begin executing them.

                It's not a "pesky little fact" it is a fact.

                As a historian, I'm really intrigued as to what history you think is neglected.

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                • #9
                  There is much that has been "forgotten" or rearranged so to speak... that is the nature of humanity sadly. We dont do well with things that are outside our norms.. it all boils down to us vs them.

                  Until we can see that we all bleed... and yes bad shit happened in the past lets not go there again... the cycle will continue. I have hope for the gay community.. but sadly like most things... it is going to take the old guard dieing off... for advancement.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kimmik View Post
                    Until we can see that we all bleed... and yes bad shit happened in the past lets not go there again... the cycle will continue. I have hope for the gay community.. but sadly like most things... it is going to take the old guard dieing off... for advancement.
                    That's exactly what my priest said when we were discussing the reforms of Vatican II and why some Catholics don't conform to it. I forgot how long he said, but I know it's something like a century for a "new" idea to be accepted.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by smileyeagle1021 View Post
                      The history of Feudal Japan and their religious practices, while mostly accurate what they reported, was used to demonize the Japanese and justify targeting civilians later in the war and the internment of thousands of US citizens of Japanese decent.
                      I remember reading somewhere that US citizens of German and Italian descent were harassed or even rounded up. At least 10,000 or so US citizens with German ancestry were forcibly detained during the war. But, because that number is so much smaller than the 120,000+ Japanese-Americans who were affected, you'll never read about that in the history books. Also not in the books...was the fact that the US wasn't the only country who had internment camps--Canada had a couple of them as well.

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                      • #12
                        Let's also not forget that the Japanese weren't innocent victims either. I know/met several veterans who have a deep-rooted hatred for the Japanese b/c of Bataan and other atrocities.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hobbs View Post
                          Let's also not forget that the Japanese weren't innocent victims either.
                          I dare you to say that to my mom's boss at her last job... please, just once.
                          His father was born in the United States, never had any contact with Japan (beyond having a few friends who were of Japanese decent), and by all accounts was a law abiding citizen. He was arrested in the middle of the night, thrown on a train with no windows, and shipped to an internment camp in Utah.
                          The vast majority of those send to the camps committed no crime aside from having a japanese last name.
                          "I'm Gar and I'm proud" -slytovhand

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hobbs View Post
                            Let's also not forget that the Japanese weren't innocent victims either. I know/met several veterans who have a deep-rooted hatred for the Japanese b/c of Bataan and other atrocities.
                            Yes the majority of the ones we stuck in internment camps were. Unless you feel we should hold everyone of a specific descent responsible for everything done by others of that descent.

                            If that's the case lock us all in jail.
                            Jack Faire
                            Friend
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                            Smartass

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                            • #15
                              I doth believe Hobbs was referring to Japan the country and it's residents and military.
                              All units: IRENE
                              HK MP5-N: Solving 800 problems a minute since 1986

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