History Repeats itself if you don't learn

[insertNameHere]

I don't know how many fellow Americans are here, or at least people who understand how our government is supposed to work with the bill of rights. I am noticing people are forgetting a well known qoute/paraphrase of Ben Franklin

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Mainly, I think this goes for freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. After 9/11 some of the bills that were passed allowed the government significant power to overstep boundaries based on suspicion without needing to get warrants. Now you can't even get on a plane with a pair of nail clippers which is a little ridiculous because if you let your plane be high jacked by something that small you have no business being in the airline industry. I get not allowing people to carry on the plane just in case some idiot accidentally lets off a round. but REALLY, banning nail clippers and bottled water?

Then I want to lead into workers rights because many people should have learned how crappy work conditions were during the industrial revolution before unions and workers rights, there was no such thing as the weekend, factories had no real safety standards.

Now with states like WI trying to break up the unions and collective bargaining, it going to make taking benefits away from workers extremely easy, and probably raises next.

[BlaqueKatt]

I am noticing people are forgetting a well known qoute/paraphrase of Ben Franklin.

well considering newsweek administered the citizenship test to 1000 natural born Americans and 38% failed, does this surprise you any?

Another 44 percent did not know that the first 10 Amendments in the U.S. Constitution are the Bill of Rights; 70 percent did not know that the Constitution is the ultimate law in the country, Another 40 percent did not know that the United States battled with Japan, Italy, and Germany during World War II. And, 23 percent did not know why Martin Luther King Jr. is celebrated

you can check your knowledge here

and another survey done showed Americans could id at least two characters from the Simpsons, but not more than one item from the bill of rights

One in five respondents said the First Amendment granted them the right to own and raise pets, as well as the right to drive.

as far as unions, well some of them have become as self-interested and corrupt as the companies they were formed to protect the workers from. And considering most of the worker's rights fought for by the unions are now ensconced in law, it's not that easy to change or repeal laws.

[Greenday]

Now you can't even get on a plane with a pair of nail clippers which is a little ridiculous because if you let your plane be high jacked by something that small you have no business being in the airline industry. I get not allowing people to carry on the plane just in case some idiot accidentally lets off a round. but REALLY, banning nail clippers and bottled water?

Just a couple days ago, some guy tried to hijack a plane going to Italy and have it land in Libya. Weapon of choice? Nail clippers. It's not like it doesn't happen.

And yes, you shouldn't be able to bring a bottle of water through security and onto the plane. What's the difference between a bottle of water and a bottle of nitroglycerin? Can you tell just by looking at it? Should they scan every bottle, which can take anywhere from five seconds to 15 minutes per bottle? Don't forget the instruments aren't exactly cheap. I mean, people flipped out over how much it costed airports to install x-ray scanners. Instruments for what I'm talking about aren't a ton cheaper. If a bottle of water is such a huge deal, buy one after you go through security or ask for one when you get on the plane before it starts moving.

[insertNameHere]

^
I really want to know how would actually give in to someone wheeling nail clippers. I hope someone came up behind him and snapped his neck.

Also the thing about buying water after you clear security is expecting to pay $5-10 for a bottle of water. and honestly if a terrorist was motivated enough, I'm sure they would find a way to bypass security or sneak supplies in with the regular shipments.

---------
So how about restricting the ability to carry a weapon for self defense by putting up no gun zones everywhere and allowing employers to prohibit employees legal firearms in their personal vehicle while on company property?

I am not a fan of the banning guns will make everyone safe movement because, criminals who doing the robberies and murders already demonstrate they don't give a shit about laws. It just makes things more dangerous for those who choose to obey the laws they hate.

[Greenday]

A man weilding a gun in public can only kill so many people.

A man weilding a gun on a plane can not only crash the plane killing more people than they are likely to just blowing random people away on the ground, but they now have access to what is basically a giant missile big enough to take down something the size of, say, one of the twin towers killing thousands of people.

So if no guns allowed on a plane means the worst someone can threaten people with is with words and bare fists, I'm fine with that. I don't need a gun because no one else will have one either.

As for the danger of nail clippers, most come with a nail file on them which is big enough to stab someone in the throat and kill them. Pull that off and everyone will be too scared to do anything essentially giving you control of the plane.

Trying to compare it to banning guns at work (apples to oranges), when job places have metal detectors and armed guards around, I'll be okay with banning guns there too.

A bottle of water doesn't cost you $5-10. Unless they skyrocketed in the past three months since I've done a ton of flying, you'll pay $2, $3 at MOST. As I said, just ask when you board the plane if it's that big a deal. There's also water fountains in airports.

[Ghel]

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

And here, I thought you were going to be talking about how the US government can do wiretaps without a court order, or how they can do search & seizure without a warrant, or how they can hold "terrorists" indefinitely without trial. Compared to those things, not being able to carry water bottles or nail clippers onto airplanes is peanuts.

[Greenday]

or how they can hold "terrorists" indefinitely without trial.

Better than what that scum deserve anyway.

[Rapscallion]

Are they proven terrorists? There's the whole concept of innocent until proven guilty to bear in mind.

Rapscallion

[Ghel]

Are they proven terrorists? There's the whole concept of innocent until proven guilty to bear in mind.

That's exactly why I put "terrorists" in quotes. If there's no trial - if they haven't even been charged with anything - then how do we know they're terrorists? If evidence hasn't been produced, what justification is there for holding them? Also, even if they are guilty of "terrorism" (a poorly defined term), some of the things that have been done to them should fall under the prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment."

[Andara Bledin]

Can you tell just by looking at it? Should they scan every bottle, which can take anywhere from five seconds to 15 minutes per bottle?

Trained dogs. It's just that easy. Works quite well in places that don't go in for keystone security theater.

...and honestly if a terrorist was motivated enough, I'm sure they would find a way to bypass security or sneak supplies in with the regular shipments.

He'd just have a friend who worked for the TSA. From what I have heard, they have shit for screening, and all you need is one American sympathizer and you're golden. Have them bring in the contraband and hand it over (or leave it for you) so you could pick it up after going through the security charade.

A man weilding a gun on a plane can not only crash the plane killing more people than they are likely to just blowing random people away on the ground, but they now have access to what is basically a giant missile big enough to take down something the size of, say, one of the twin towers killing thousands of people.

Except that pilot doors are kept locked at all times, now, and nobody gets access, especially not some gun-toting maniac. If this wasn't the practice before, it should have been.

Better than what that scum deserve anyway.

Yeah, just hope that they never pick you up by mistake. It'll take years before they figure out that, "Oh, oops, you weren't actually a terrorist. Here ya go, you can have your life back. What's left of it. No hard feelings, right?"

At that point, we have become the terrorists.

^-.-^

[Rageaholic]

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

I agree with this totally. While I believe there are necessary protections to take against terrorists (increased airport secutiy), there are lines that should not be crossed (like some of the many recent TSA violations). Though some of this stuff goes beyond "protection" into intrusiveness. I've gone on and on about our public schools and how they seem to love getting in family's faces about things that should be none of their business.

The way I see it, when we view the government as "they're the government, they can do what they want", then we might as well accept a dictatorship. NO ONE should have the authority to be able to make decisions that affect hundreds/thousands of people without any say from those people. And yes, I'm talking to you Rick Synder, governor of my home state!

Same thing with workers rights. Now it may be a different ball park since one doesn't technically have to work for them, but since you have to have a job to get money, the same principles apply. I've known people who worked for real asshole bosses who made all these silly rules and workers just had to go with it. This goes beyond expecting the employees to do their job and into control freak bullshit. Yet they couldn't question them for fear of getting fired. And when people just accept, or worse, DEFEND the company for being authoritarian douche monkeys, they're gonna get screwed over.

This is why I see nothing wrong with a healthy sense of entitlement because otherwise, others will feel entitled to control and screw you over.

[AdminAssistant]

It's funny how people make flying into this huge hassle. I flew for the first time every last August and had no issues whatsoever. (Granted, this was before they started the patdowns.) The TSA agents were friendly and helped me through the security process (one even commented on how cute my mini laptop was). I was through security in 5-10 minutes (max!). Got to my gate, spent about $10 on water, snacks, a magazine....so painless! Oh noes, I had to pack my nail clippers and tweezers in my checked luggage, egads!!! I had to use the hotel shampoo!! My rights, my rights!! Yeah, I prefer the "right" to a safe flight, thanks.

[Evandril]

Increased security, I can understand...the way it's being done now? That I don't agree with. You've got a bunch of under-trained, under-paid 'security' trying to check people, and praying nothing goes wrong. There has not been *ONE* person caught by the increased security that they've announced...and with the publicity they've had, I'm certain they'd have done so. I've had no training in how to bypass security, and I've seen holes in what they do...heck, last time I flew, I realized I hadn't taken my lighter out of my carry on AFTER I landed...which is something they were supposed to have taken from me.

The best example about how the rules are more important to 'security' than common sense...last time I deployed to the desert on a commercial flight, they stopped one of the army troops, took away his nail clippers...and gave him back his *M-16 RIFLE* and let him board the plane. Now it could be me, but I'd think a nice military rifle, even unloaded, would be a *bit* more dangerous than nail clippers!

[Greenday]

That's exactly why I put "terrorists" in quotes. If there's no trial - if they haven't even been charged with anything - then how do we know they're terrorists? If evidence hasn't been produced, what justification is there for holding them? Also, even if they are guilty of "terrorism" (a poorly defined term), some of the things that have been done to them should fall under the prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment."

Do you really think we just arrest people with no proof? LOL No evidence. Yes there is. We don't pick out terrorists by playing Eenie meanie miney moe.

Yeah, just hope that they never pick you up by mistake. It'll take years before they figure out that, "Oh, oops, you weren't actually a terrorist. Here ya go, you can have your life back. What's left of it. No hard feelings, right?"

At that point, we have become the terrorists.

^-.-^

Well, seeing as I'm not making IEDs and blowing people up, I don't have to worry about that.

[Nyoibo]

Do you really think we just arrest people with no proof? LOL No evidence. Yes there is. We don't pick out terrorists by playing Eenie meanie miney moe.

So the hundreds of people on no fly lists just because they share the same name as someone else are terrorists? Like the 10* year old girl who is on the list and was not allowed to fly, even though she wasn't even born when the attacks on the twin towers happened? Screwups happen, people have been arrested by accident, hell there was recently a guy arrested in Buffalo for downloading child porn, agents broke into his home and had him on the ground with automatic weapons pointed at him calling him pedo, pervert, scum, things like that, yurns out it wsa his neighbour stealing his wi-fi. Mistakes are made, when you have no right of appeal or hell, any rights at all, what are you going to do?