Parents do not proclaim sex of their 4-month-old baby

[IDrinkaRum]

They want their child to decide if they want to be either a boy or a girl

The parents came across a 1970's book called X: A Fabulous Child's Story. X is a child that was raised as neither a boy or a girl and grew up well-adjusted and happy.

The parents have 2 boys who are "unschooled", have long hair, and are allowed to pick out clothing in either the boys or girls sections of stores.

However, the oldest boy, Jazz, doesn't like being mistaken for a girl, even though he dresses like one.

As for now, only the parents, the 2 brothers, and a midwife all know the baby's gender. Not even the grandparents are allowed to know.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Okay, I'm sorry but really? I mean, it's one thing to not push your kid into a gender role, but not even letting anyone know what gender they are? Grandparents don't even know?

A bit over the line. I didn't push mine into a gender role, either, but I didn't hide what gender she was. It's one thing to not make a big deal out of it, but actively hiding it IS making a big deal out of it. A big WEIRD deal.

My girl ended up being about as feminine, pink wearing, doll playing-with, fussy, preening, princess-loving, ballet-dancing a kid as you can imagine, by the way. Through no fault of mine.

The messed up thing is that from the article, it sounds like the kids are suffering from this. One kid has already admitted that things are uncomfortable for him because of being mistaken for a girl. It clearly bothers him, and he's not getting any guidance from his parents on how to fix the problem. He's asking his parents to make sure others know he's not a girl. That tells me he clearly has a gender identity, but doesn't know how to express it.

SCAdian boys tend to have long hair, and they frequently choose to cut it at some point (I see this in the prettier boys more) because they get mistaken for girls and they don't like it. The more masculine looking boys keep their hair because it's not a problem, but when a boy is slender and has delicate bone structure, he gets sick of the embarrassment. It's obviously an issue for them. (I saw one of the more famously beautiful ones this past weekend sporting a new short do. I wasn't suprised. The boy has three sisters and he's the prettiest of the lot...first time I saw the boy, the only thing that tipped me off to his gender was that he had big feet and was wearing boy's sneakers. And that was a dumb assumption, really, because my own feet are like boats.)

[fireheart17]

They want their child to decide if they want to be either a boy or a girl

The parents came across a 1970's book called X: A Fabulous Child's Story. X is a child that was raised as neither a boy or a girl and grew up well-adjusted and happy.

The parents have 2 boys who are "unschooled", have long hair, and are allowed to pick out clothing in either the boys or girls sections of stores.

I remember that story, one of the teachers at my primary school told me that one. I think the point of it at the time was just to be more non-judgemental (i.e. one girl might prefer putting onmakeup, while another girl might want to tinker around with electronics. Both of them are still girls)

I can't wait to see what happens when those two boys hit puberty....

[AdminAssistant]

Honestly, I'm more worried about the 'unschooling' than the gender roles. It sounds surprisingly like the most recent episode of Family Guy.

[IDrinkaRum]

I didn't realize there was a sub-genre (or whatever) of homeschooling. Does "Unschooling" actually work? Or is it just a cop-out for parents?

Not that I'm knocking it. It's definitely not something I could do with Child Rum, even if I wanted to. She needs structure and lots of it.

[Greenday]

99% the kid in the picture is a boy.

I mean, it's nice to let kids pick stuff out for themselves, but when they are getting mistaken for being the wrong sex a lot, it's not fair to leave them in the dark and let it continue on. That's a big mindfuck and it's unfair to the kids. It would be nice to live in a world where your gender doesn't define you, but the way to do it isn't by having your kids completely ignore certain things.

Encouraging different activities? Good
Encouraging girls to like sports, cars, etc. or boys to like whatever it is your weird creatures enjoy stereotypically? Good
Encouraging kids to dress and treat themselves like the opposite sex leading to a lifetime of being treated like an outcast? Bad

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I feel like if a boy wants to wear girl's clothes, then whatever. Provided he knows what he is doing and is ready to brace himself against the repercussions.

If he's doing it not knowing that they're girl's clothes and wearing them is going to cause problems for himself, and then not giving him guidance when the inevitable problems arise, that's just negligent. And I would argue that it's also using your kid to further your own agenda, even when it harms him. That's just wrong.

[Glados]

I am also more concerned with the unschooling. Unschooling is the practice of allowing education to come in the form of real life experience. They simply live day to day life and learn that way. That is only one form of education and is going to put the kids at a disadvantage when it comes time for college and/or career. Agree or disagree, our society expects people to have a reasonably standard education.

The gender issues will also cause problems as these children grow up. They face bullying and torment from this. They will hopefully find their niche from interacting with people other than the parents.

Last thought, how in the hell did they keep gender secret from everyone, even grandparents, did no one ever babysit them and change a diaper? Did they never need help changing clothes? I cannot imagine raising my two girls without grandma ever changing a diaper or giving a bath.

[patiokitty]

SCAdian boys tend to have long hair, and they frequently choose to cut it at some point (I see this in the prettier boys more) because they get mistaken for girls and they don't like it. The more masculine looking boys keep their hair because it's not a problem, but when a boy is slender and has delicate bone structure, he gets sick of the embarrassment. It's obviously an issue for them. (I saw one of the more famously beautiful ones this past weekend sporting a new short do. I wasn't suprised. The boy has three sisters and he's the prettiest of the lot...first time I saw the boy, the only thing that tipped me off to his gender was that he had big feet and was wearing boy's sneakers. And that was a dumb assumption, really, because my own feet are like boats.)

During my time in the SCA I noticed this as well. In fact it is what originally made my son decide to let his hair grow out although he was never successful until AFTER we no longer played. Now he has beautiful long hair...and an unkempt beard so that people don't mistake him as a girl. When he is clean-shaven he is very 'pretty' with big blues eyes and the whole works. I'm waiting for the day that he's had enough and comes home with a buzz cut. It's his hair so I let him do what he wants with it as long as it's clean and brushed when he leaves the house.

It's one thing to leave things up to children to decide but raising a child as genderless? Yeah, that's going to cause a lot of issues for that child growing up. While I agree with a certain liberalness to raising children there are some things that I just can't fathom for the life of me.

[Kimmik]

I am also more concerned with the unschooling. Unschooling is the practice of allowing education to come in the form of real life experience. They simply live day to day life and learn that way. That is only one form of education and is going to put the kids at a disadvantage when it comes time for college and/or career. Agree or disagree, our society expects people to have a reasonably standard education.

You would be surprised the education that you can get from day to day stuff... cooking involves math skills and reading, baking is a science... reading is everywhere... I plan on homeschooling... but I plan a more old school education... HSing isnt what most think it is.

As for the gender thing... they are doing their children a disservice in the fact that they are not explaining to them as they age the social hang ups that they are going to run into...

[RecoveringKinkoid]

During my time in the SCA I noticed this as well. In fact it is what originally made my son decide to let his hair grow out although he was never successful until AFTER we no longer played. Now he has beautiful long hair...and an unkempt beard so that people don't mistake him as a girl. .

Yeah, once they hit puberty, and it's not an issue anymore as they develop secondary sexual features and no matter how much hair they have, they still look male. But prepubescent kids don't often have a lot of obvious gender cues. And lets face it, a little girl may well be wearing hand me downs from a boy (as mine did), but it's a rare little boy that wears them from a girl. That's just how our culture is. It's a double standard, like it or not. So the pretty boy I mentioned was indeed dressed like a boy. But he was so damn pretty I had to think long and hard about it before I addressed him. If he'd been wearing anything even remotely feminine, I would have thought he was a girl. And I doubt seriously he would have been happy about that. He probably gets that A LOT. And the newly shorn hair tells me I'm probably right about that.

[Rageaholic]

It sounds like the real concern for these parents is gender expectations. If that's what they're issue is, than I see their point. I feel a child should be free to be interested in what he or she wants without the social preasure of "You're a boy so you have to be interested in sports". But keeping his gender a secret, even to him (assuming he's a boy)? That is not the answer. A kids brain isn't even fully developed until age 12. There's no way he's going to be able to even comprehend this stuff for years. And doesn't that send a mixed message anyway? What's the reason for having no gender if you're going to be accepting anyway?

I applaud them for not giving into social preasure (I'm thinking of starting a seperate thread on unschooling), but this makes my brain hurt.

[BlaqueKatt]

I didn't realize there was a sub-genre (or whatever) of homeschooling. Does "Unschooling" actually work? Or is it just a cop-out for parents?

some info on "unschooling" can be found here and here

That is only one form of education and is going to put the kids at a disadvantage when it comes time for college and/or career. Agree or disagree, our society expects people to have a reasonably standard education.

For college or a career they would need to pass the GED Exam, a test that 50% of students GETTING THEIR DIPLOMA after 12 years of public schooling, cannot pass.

All I "learned" in school was how to memorize and regurgitate facts and answers on command.

I was "unschooled" from 5th to 8th grade(parents pulled me out of public school due to excessive bullying), when I returned to a public high school I was AHEAD of my peers. My husband and his three sisters were "unschooled", my husband graduated Cum Laude from college, he has a BS in computer science. His oldest sister is currently doing quite well in college(B's and C's) All four of them passed their GED exam on the first try.

Last thought, how in the hell did they keep gender secret from everyone, even grandparents, did no one ever babysit them and change a diaper? Did they never need help changing clothes? I cannot imagine raising my two girls without grandma ever changing a diaper or giving a bath.

My own husband never changed a diaper, grandparents lived over 500 miles away and my son never had a babysitter, he couldn't I nursed him, he was allergic to anything other than breastmilk and I couldn't pump. It's not that unusual.

[anakhouri]

If they don't want to cement their kids into gender roles, couldn't they just give the boys some dollies and the girls some Transformers?

I tried to give Khan a dolly and he kicked it in the face and threw it behind the couch. I know he has a definite gender identity.

[Andara Bledin]

I tried to give Khan a dolly and he kicked it in the face and threw it behind the couch. I know he has a definite gender identity.

Or he could just hate dolls.

I'm quite girly in a lot of ways, and I mostly hated dolls when I was younger.

^-.-^