60 year old man molests 11 year old, Okay since she's in love

[ebonyknight]

I've also got that I don't exist. (I'm not really a gay guy, I'm just pretending to be in order to convert them to Christianity.)

See, you did it again.

[Andara Bledin]

What makes me curious is why the law can't simply say that civil marriages have to be open to everybody, regardless of sexual orientation, and religious marriages are up to the religion in question?

That's precisely what the fight being taken to the SCotUS is all about; declaring that there is zero legitimate secular reason to have any requirements for marriage beyond "two consenting adults who are not already married."

Every argument brought against doing just that has been based on bigotry and ignorance and so has failed.

[Gravekeeper]

Marriage is a religious practice. A religion that expressly says that homosexuality is wrong. Why be a part of it?

Marriage in Christianity was originally about property rights. Including the woman now being property. >.>

That aside, marriage is a universal social and legal construct found in pretty much every culture regardless of religion. It is not the property of any one religion or religion in general. Christians do not own marriage regardless of what a vocal handful of morons in the US say. The definition of marriage is not even universal between all sects of Christianity. Never mind every religion.

Hell, marriage isn't even a thing in Buddhism. In fact with Japanese Buddhist monks, homosexuality was openly and widely practiced from the 15-17th centuries. Much to the horror of Christian missionaries ;p

[s_stabeler]

Marriage in Christianity was originally about property rights. Including the woman now being property. >.>

it wasn't always the woman becoming property- in Roman times, she was the property of her father first. Including the right to kill their daughters ( and sons, for that matter)

[Greenday]

Hi.

I'm gay.

I'm Christian.

Would be nice if people STOPPED PRETENDING I DON'T EXIST.

Pretty sure ebonyknight just wanted to know why someone would want to participate in a group whose official stance is that being gay is wrong. Not all churches may follow that, I know the one I go to every once and a while doesn't care if people are gay. But that's the exception, not the rule.

[Andara Bledin]

Pretty sure ebonyknight just wanted to know why someone would want to participate in a group whose official stance is that being gay is wrong. Not all churches may follow that, I know the one I go to every once and a while doesn't care if people are gay. But that's the exception, not the rule.

This isn't actually true. While the largest factions tend to be on the anti-side, a large percentage, and likely a majority percentage, of different branches actually tolerate or embrace homosexuality. But the big ones get all the news.

And that doesn't even begin to get into those who are more Jesuist (not to be confused with Jesuit) than Christian, who should be pretty much uniformly on the acceptance side.

[LewisLegion]

I am also gay and Christian.

It's not that Christianity doesn't want us, it's that certain sects of Christianity don't want us. There are plenty of Christian churches that WANT to marry gay people and don't view it as a sin.

There are distinctions in marriage. Firstly, I hear the 'why don't you be content with civil unions if you have the exact same rights as marriage? Keep marriage religious' a lot (not from anyone here as of yet).

The answer to that is many fold. Firstly, marriage IS the secular civil union, legally between two people, and religion may or may not be involved. The religious sacrament is called holy matrimony. There is already a different name.

Secondly, marriage predates the sacrament by a great margin. The early church viewed marriage as a government problem and wanted no hand in it. They didn't adopt it as a religious sacrament until the 11th century, I believe.

Thirdly, separate but equal does not and has never worked. It is saying 'you belong on a different bus because you might somehow make our bus dirtier/stop working. but its ok, because you're still on a bus, right?'. It makes an inherently inferior and second class group.

People like to link pedophilia to homosexuality for the reasons someone mentioned earlier- they see men molesting boys and assume it's homosexual. The thing is, it very very rarely is. There are men who molest boys who have an adult heterosexual orientation. They molest boys because a) boys are less guarded and easier to access, and b) prepubescent boys resemble girls. When the boy hits puberty and actually starts taking on more masculine characteristics, they lose interest. Other pedophiles who abuse boys do so because they don't have an adult orientation at ALL. Their sexual attraction is solely to children, of either gender, and as such they are not heterosexual OR homosexual.

They also like to ignore half of the entire homosexual population- lesbians. It's just gay men that most of the wingnuts hate and they tend to ignore us completely. The thing is, gay women are the LEAST likely demographic to molest children, so clearly- homosexuality has little to nothing to do with pedophilia. If it was directly related, homosexual women would be pedophiles just as much as homosexual men.

According to the CDC, of 100 heterosexual men, 5 are statistically pedophiles. Of 100 homosexual men, 1 is statistically a pedophile. Of heterosexual women, 1 is statistically a pedophile. Of homosexual women, less than .5 is statistically a pedophile.

[Skunkle]

I, too, am gay and Christian. These are not mutually exclusive. For anyone who believes they must be, come to Seattle and I'll take you to a large, wonderful church where all people are welcomed with open arms and belief is that God loves all His children. And, for that matter, where there's none of the "love the sinner, hate the sin" of the common type which ends up seeming to mean, "I think you're disgusting, but God says I have to love even the vilest of sinners, so I'll say the words."

To the topic at hand: How did the court decide that the girl loved him? How was this determined?

[Sarah Valentine]

Probably took his word for it, "Yes your honor she told me she loves me so therefore it's ok." I hope something truly horrible happens to that goddamn shit bag.

[Gravekeeper]

Probably took his word for it, "Yes your honor she told me she loves me so therefore it's ok." I hope something truly horrible happens to that goddamn shit bag.

It was the Supreme court that overturned it. Every other court all the way up upheld the conviction. Wrap your head around that. The Italian court system is fucked up six ways from Sunday. Remember, this is the same system that convicted geologists for failing to predict an earthquake and who is STILL chasing after Amanda Knox.

The Italian legal system allows both the defense AND the prosecution to appeal. IE the prosecution is allowed to swing at you as many times as the defense would normally be allowed to try and bail you out.

If you're not angry enough, Italy's Supreme court resides in an actual palace called the Palace of Justice.

[fireheart17]

I am also gay and Christian.

It's not that Christianity doesn't want us, it's that certain sects of Christianity don't want us. There are plenty of Christian churches that WANT to marry gay people and don't view it as a sin.

I will say this: even in Australia (where same-sex marriage is currently not on the books), we have this. There are certain branches that are happy to marry everyone, certain branches that will tolerate homosexuality right through to ordaining LGBT ministers/bishops and certain branches that will tolerate homosexuality but do not acknowledge it or similar (that is, you can be gay but you have to be celibate or something like that)

There are distinctions in marriage. Firstly, I hear the 'why don't you be content with civil unions if you have the exact same rights as marriage? Keep marriage religious' a lot (not from anyone here as of yet).

The answer to that is many fold. Firstly, marriage IS the secular civil union, legally between two people, and religion may or may not be involved. The religious sacrament is called holy matrimony. There is already a different name.

I hear this argument a LOT from people over here who are under the belief that the second same-sex marriages are approved, their marriage will suddenly become under threat. Many people seem to have blurred the lines however and/or been brainwashed (sorry, but this is necessary to my point) to believe that marriage was strictly a Christian thing and that anything prior to Christianity (if they believe it ever existed) was not real marriage.

Secondly, marriage predates the sacrament by a great margin. The early church viewed marriage as a government problem and wanted no hand in it. They didn't adopt it as a religious sacrament until the 11th century, I believe.

I usually point out the classic "Well if marriage is so sacred, why is there a <insert figure here> divorce rate, including among <insert religious denomination here>?" Alternately there's the other classic "what about Britney Spears 55-hour marriage, why is Liz Taylor getting married for the 9th time etc."

People like to link pedophilia to homosexuality for the reasons someone mentioned earlier- they see men molesting boys and assume it's homosexual. The thing is, it very very rarely is. There are men who molest boys who have an adult heterosexual orientation. They molest boys because a) boys are less guarded and easier to access, and b) prepubescent boys resemble girls. When the boy hits puberty and actually starts taking on more masculine characteristics, they lose interest. Other pedophiles who abuse boys do so because they don't have an adult orientation at ALL. Their sexual attraction is solely to children, of either gender, and as such they are not heterosexual OR homosexual.

I also suspected that it was because some girls LOOK younger than they really are and are therefore open to pregnancy/STI's etc. as well.
As for the "sexual attraction to children only" argument, when this has been brought up frequently in certain discussion circles, the argument I've heard is "there is such a thing as homosexual pedophiles: they only have an interest in boys"...and I just lost another millionbrain cells at reading that.

They also like to ignore half of the entire homosexual population- lesbians. It's just gay men that most of the wingnuts hate and they tend to ignore us completely. The thing is, gay women are the LEAST likely demographic to molest children, so clearly- homosexuality has little to nothing to do with pedophilia. If it was directly related, homosexual women would be pedophiles just as much as homosexual men.

But remember, girl-on-girl action is HOT. So of course we can ignore lesbians, because after all, all girls secretly want to have a lesbian interaction at some point because it's HOT. So let's let them be lesbians because otherwise we'd have nothing to watch on TV or at parties!

(that's how I believe some people see it anyway. This is not how I see it!)

[Gravekeeper]

The funny thing is support for same sex marriage has been increasing steadily on a global scale across all gender, age, economic, political and religious lines. Higher levels of education are correlated to higher levels of acceptance as well. Yes, there is a skew across age groups with younger people being more likely to accept it. But that just seals the deal.

Opposing same sex marriage is being on the wrong side of history and no matter how much you froth at the mouth over it, it will come to pass after your old backwards ass is dead.

[s_stabeler]

Opposing same sex marriage is being on the wrong side of history and no matter how much you froth at the mouth over it, it will come to pass after your old backwards ass is dead.

Actually, it's sooner than that. Realistically, it mainly depends on how long it is until the healthcare debacle subsides. I'm not sure if Obama will try to legalize gay marriage- it's almost asking for the tea party to organize a filibuster, and he DID abolish DADT, which was a bug step forward- but it's not inconceivable that the next president will try. Each president tries to do at least one big thing to be their legacy. For Bush, it was the War On Terror. For Obama, it was Healthcare Reform. Fore whoever's next, it may well be tempting to try for Gay Marriage as a legacy.

[Sarah Valentine]

If you're not angry enough, Italy's Supreme court resides in an actual palace called the Palace of Justice.

It shouldn't be called that since they let the sick pervert get away with it.

[HYHYBT]

All things considered, Obama's got a pretty good record on gay issues, but it's too late at this point to start up a new "legacy" issue. It's also got zero chance at passing the House and could even cause troublesome Supreme Court rulings. As things stand now, the court is very likely to strike all the remaining bans before the next president has been in office a year anyway; possibly much sooner, so there's not much point in trying to push it through Congress.