Women who complain they're "too beautiful".

[Gravekeeper]

You're defending a total rewording of what was said which isn't "the same thing". Apples/oranges.

And you can't seem to grasp what a simile is.

And I still say the fallacy stands because you've given no reason why a weight based derogatory comment is acceptable, just claimed it is.

Again, that's not even how that fallacy works.

from urban dictionary:
bag of antlers(closest term)
Term used to describe how a very skinny and/or bony woman looks or feels like.

You're seriously going to use Urban Dictionary as a debate reference?

And quite simply, if I made a comment, about the "big sweaty fat man", I'd be jumped on for "white knighting" because I'm thin.

I have no idea what your body shape, size or weight is, why would I or anyone here accuse you of white knighting because you're thin. Nor do you have any idea what anyone else's body shape, size or weight is that you're arguing with.

Glad I clairified my stance only to, as always, be ignored:

No one's ignoring you, otherwise we would not be having this discussion. The problem is that your position is unreasonable, overly sensitive and unrealistic. If not borderline extremist.

I used to have weight issues(still do, my 7 years of having an eating disorder has really messed up my body, in ways you wouldn't believe*). I'm sick and tired of being called weight based names because it's "acceptable", for no other reason than I'm the opposite end of the spectrum and therefore I don't have feelings or something.

Your personal experiences and sore points do not equate to a global memorandum on society. Nor does randomly linking websites as if that's some sort of ultimate proof. Especially given that the very thing you just linked refers to the very situation you're arguing over. Here, let me read it back to you:

In some situations, a person's size might be an important aspect of his or her job, so a preference for someone of a certain size might not be considered discrimination.

Furthermore, you need to do some serious research into what actual discrimination is if you think it means a web forum on the internet hurt your feelings because someone used a simile about wrestling.

[siead_lietrathua]

but that isn't what was said, unless my computer screen left out words. You're defending a total rewording of what was said which isn't "the same thing". Apples/oranges.

it's the exact same damn thing to call a muscle-less male wrestler a "bag of sticks" as it is to call a female one the same. it's not a comment on their body fat. it's a comment on their muscle mass. if we cannot call an under-toned athlete (regardless of gender) with upper arms scrawnier than my wrists as someone who is too thin, or sticky, for the sport then we might as well let anyone get in the ring and just shrug off the potential dangers.

GK's sentence isn't floating in an abyss all by itself, the context of the comment has been thoroughly explained by now. but even if it hadn't been explained, that doesn't change my question to you.

so, again, if GK had made his bag of stick comment about a MALE wrestler, would you still have had a complaint?

(edit: while i'm well aware the first time i posed the question above it was worded differently, but the heart of the question is the same.)

also, since i never really responded to hyena: shortness isn't an issue. luchadors tend to be small and they are demons in the ring. but one thing they are NOT is scrawny.

[BlaqueKatt]

so, again, if GK had made his bag of stick comment about a MALE wrestler, would you still have had a complaint?

yes I would, and quite simply there is a large gap between my first two posts, and i *did* address *both* sizeist statements*, which is what is being ignored, in favor of telling me calling out discriminatory language is wrong because....I don't know...the person I'm calling out maybe?

there is a HUGE chasm of difference between saying "person is not an adequate weight/body composition for their chosen profession" and "Person is a land whale/stick"(heck even, "she's too thin to wrestle safely" I'd have no issue)

One is acceptable, one is derogatory. How is this a difficult concept?

This is what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that what was said is wrong. what was meant is apparently up for debate(we've had numerous "interpretations" already-any of those are perfectly acceptable without being derogatory), but that isn't what I'm arguing, as I'm not up to date on my mind reading classes.

Instead of owning the fact that a *very* poor choice of language was chosen, everyone's deflecting from the actual statement made, and piling on me for saying "hey, using terms like that isn't ok." And blaming me for being "thin-skinned" or "having an attitude problem". I'm treated as being in the wrong for merely *pointing out* a form of discriminatory language being used. I never said anything about anything other than the chosen term(and being told that, somehow, this situation is exempt, but after saying it is, the person claiming exemption isn't making a
claim)

i posted earlier about how most women dealing with harrassment don't go out of their way to make their near-unclothed bodies available online.

Though this ^ is borderline victim blaming.
Harassment isn't ok. full stop, no qualifiers, no "but she was asking for it", no "but she posted sexy photos after complaining", no "but...attention whore." Harassment is not ok. PERIOD.

*I was tone policing myself, and when I'm upset enough to have to do that I usually delete a good portion of what I've typed, the original post was about 12 paragraphs, so as not to be accusatory, and apparently still did. and just FYI-my understanding of "white knighting" is more jumping in to defend someone who's being a called out for whatever reason just because of who they are, usually in an attempt to gain favor.






What I'm taking away from this is " stop being uppity, things were just fine until y'all started complaining."

[Canarr]

yes I would, and quite simply there is a large gap between my first two posts, and i *did* address *both* sizeist statements*, which is what is being ignored, in favor of telling me calling out discriminatory language is wrong because....I don't know...the person I'm calling out maybe?

Uhm... where? I went back to your first post commenting on GK's "bag of sticks", and you don't acknowledge his "giant sweaty fatman" in the same post.

Admittedly, I myself hadn't noticed that part until Andara mentioned it. But if you really want to hold the moral high ground in this debate, shouldn't you have equally criticized GK's use of potentially derogatory words at both Ends of the weight range?

[BlaqueKatt]

Uhm... where? I went back to your first post commenting on GK's "bag of sticks", and you don't acknowledge his "giant sweaty fatman" in the same post.

I DID
Since it's inviso-text apparently

how is "bag of sticks" NOT derogatory? it's a disparaging remark based solely on weight, calling someone fat, whale, moose, etc. isn't ok. Both are hurtful.

*I stand by the only time ANYONE should say ANYTHING about someone's weight is if they are a medical professional seeing a patient in a medical setting and the patient has asked.

I explained that I was tone policing myself, deleted a LOT, and felt after 24 hours editing a previous post would be disingenuous.

you know what would have ended this?

instead of:

You're really going to go there on this topic? Seriously? -.-

what's wrong with:

You're really going to go there on this topic? Seriously? -.-poor choice of words, I meant....

Is it really that hard? Really?

Here I'll even go first:
Yes I have a tendency to overreact to things that are *very* hurtful to me, we all do. Can we at least agree that there are better descriptions?

Many people might not care, but I've *been* on both ends of the weight issue, and been bullied, harassed, and called names on both(I also have a wonderful case of PTSD, guess what can trigger it). Would you argue a "little sexism is fine", how about a "little racism"? Would you accuse anyone sensitive to those issues of the things I've been accused of in this thread? You can't speak to my experiences, and to dismiss them out of hand because you personally haven't had them, or because "it's the internet", I'm not a person, and empathy and compassion don't exist?

I've also after leaving my spouse and moving 900 miles away from my family, gotten some HORRIBLE medical news, that I'm stuck dealing with 100% on my own, because my family has their own problems, and really don't need to worry about something they can't fix, or assist me with.-so I'm a tad overly emotional, but this and CS are pretty much my ONLY contact with people. I'm limiting myself because of that. Which is probably not healthy, but it's limit contact or get upset and get jumped on for being upset.

[siead_lietrathua]

Though this ^ is borderline victim blaming.
Harassment isn't ok. full stop, no qualifiers, no "but she was asking for it", no "but she posted sexy photos after complaining", no "but...attention whore." Harassment is not ok. PERIOD.

ok, NO it's not. noting that people who have been victimized tend to behave in certain ways AFTER their harassment is not victim blaming. saying that she acts very different from how most victims act AFTER being harassed is NOT victim blaming. did i say she deserved to be harassed? fuck no. all i said is that she acts very differently from other people that have been harassed IN THE PAST. she also acts a lot like people that make drama to get fame. (edit brackets: hell i'm not even saying she wasn't harassed. but she IS using the harassment to gain personal fame.)
we are talking about post-event behavior, not pre-event. you can't blame someone for an event happening based on things they do after the event has already passed.

to the rest of the post: i'm sorry you have some personal shit going on right now. it sucks having PTDS, and triggers can pop up out of nowhere at times. you aren't the only one in this thread that has had weight issues. you called GK out on his yourself, and i can assure you i'm an obese person.
but i don't think that anyone here in this thread can be blamed for your reactions to what is a very common bit of slang used when someone will be tossed about easily because of a massive size discrepancy. GK said "So by the time she gets in the ring she's a bag of sticks that can be tossed around rather easily."
he didn't just say she's a literal bundle of sticks. he said that when she gets in the ring she can be tossed around easily. he's commenting on her athletic ability. the stick thing was JUST a descriptor. and an accurate one! the woman IS like a bundle of sticks in comparison to her large teammate. just as a child could be tossed around like a bundle of sticks by an adult. or a cat can be tossed like a bundle of sticks by an elephant.


edit: ya know, i really don't like how you snipped attention whore out of my earlier post. so i'mma post the context here. this is the only time i ever used the term "attention whore" in this thread, i went back and checked . you pulled out the word attention whore like i was saying she was one. but i was using it in a context to make the point that it SUCKS when people don't believe that pretty women can be harassed. i don't like being taken out of context.

to the idea of women being too pretty to the point of suckage.... i can actually see it. i mean, harrassment sucks no matter who's the victim of it. but when you're attractive and harrassed, you also have to deal with women and men brushing off what could be a serious problem as just "attention whoring".
granted, the women for whom this is actually a problem probably wouldn't brag about it on tv. but i CAN see pretty women having a problem with unwanted attention for sure. and most of those women with a problem with it don't go posting their bodies online in their underoos.

[BlaqueKatt]

ok, NO it's not. noting that people who have been victimized tend to behave in certain ways AFTER their harassment is not victim blaming. saying that she acts very different from how most victims act AFTER being harassed is NOT victim blaming. did i say she deserved to be harassed? fuck no. all i said is that she acts very differently from other people that have been harassed IN THE PAST.

And that's why my rapist is free, because I "didn't act like a rape victim, so obviously at 14 I wasn't raped and impregnated by someone 3x my age". There are as many ways to react to things as there are people, because everyone is different. And I clearly said borderline victim blaming, but once again I must be typing in invisotext.

edit: ya know, i really don't like how you snipped attention whore out of my earlier post. so i'mma post the context here. this is the only time i ever used the term "attention whore" in this thread, i went back and checked . you pulled out the word attention whore like i was saying she was one. but i was using it in a context to make the point that it SUCKS when people don't believe that pretty women can be harassed. i don't like being taken out of context.

No, I was just giving reasons people give, for it being "OK" to harass,
i usually use three examples in any list like that. I don't believe you said "she was asking for it" in any form. Which that was an example too.

This entire thread feels like high school.

[Gravekeeper]

Instead of owning the fact that a *very* poor choice of language was chosen

Just because you slap the label fact on it, doesn't make it so any more than slapping the label logical fallacy on it or linking urban dictionary.

Yes I have a tendency to overreact to things that are *very* hurtful to me, we all do.

No, we all don't. This is your personal hang up that you are projecting on the rest of us and have now succeeding in completely derailing this thread and making it entirely about your own personal problem.

There are as many ways to react to things as there are people, because everyone is different.

Exactly, and you're applying the standard of your life to the rest of us instead of being reasonable.

Many people might not care, but I've *been* on both ends of the weight issue, and been bullied, harassed, and called names on both(I also have a wonderful case of PTSD, guess what can trigger it).

I have been pointedly not engaging in misery dick measuring with you despite how many times you've slapped it up on the table as if it proves the facts of the matter you're claiming. But seeing as that seems to be the only currency you put any worth in here, fine.

I have PTSD as well, along with a severe anxiety disorder and depression. I have been off work now for over a god damn year. Due to the chronic injuries sustained at my job and their impact on my quality of life. I live on my couch. My couch is my entire fucking world right now. My computer is hooked up to my TV. I don't go in my bedroom because my computer desk is there which triggers the PTSD. I don't sleep more than 2 hours at a time. Half the time I can barely stay awake more than 4 hours straight. I have gone through 4 different medications, been in the hospital twice and the operating range of my life consists of here to 7/11.

My problems led to me losing over 30 pounds in a matter of weeks. I ended up malnurished and I only just regained a normal weight in December. I'm only just maintaining it now because I eat a lot of carbs. Mainly because the extent of my self preservation skills is pouring a bowl of cereal. My family comes down weekly in order to do all my house work for me and get me to a grocery store so I don't starve to death.

I have spells where I don't eat for days or look in the mirror and realize I have a beard because I don't remember the last time I showered. I live alone with a cat. I quite literally have no real life friends because my social circle crumbled over the years due to my undiagnosed PTSD and the long, hard hours I worked on a night shift. I've effectively lost 6 years of my life to this because I did nothing but work and sleep and there was no one in my life to see the warning signs.

My life savings are gone, I've used up my injury/illness insurance and am now facing the fact I have to admit I am disabled. All my job skills are in an industry that I can effectively no longer work in ever again. Doctor's orders.

But you don't see me farking whining about it on a web forum because someone hurt my feelings by saying something was "crippled". We all have our personal problems and vulnerabilities. But there's no need to impose them on everyone else at the drop of a hat on the flippin' Internet of all places. Then insist everyone hold themselves to your extreme standards.

So yeah, you can stop arguing. Because I honestly do not care what you think any longer due to your obvious personal bias on this matter. Feel free to keep arguing with siead if you like over how terrible a person I am because I used a figure of speech you don't understand.

[siead_lietrathua]

naw GK i'm done as well. no matter how many times it's explained that talking about an athlete's weight in relation to their work is not weightism, we'll all be horrible people.

again, saying an athlete is underweight for their sport is not being weightest. it's being fucking realistic. and i don't care what analogy was used to describe the discrepancy. it's still not weightism!

and ya know what? there were comments in this thread that WERE weightiest. like on the first page, where the same chick was called an anorexic dumb blond. if you had quoted THAT in outrage, i know i woulda been behind you on that, probably other people too. but to get up in arms over the offhand, and perfectly legit comparison, that GK made and not about that is what makes me think this is really just an over-reaction to a triggering term.

and well.... i'm going to put this as nicely as i can. comparing this to a rape situation is very much apples and oranges. i've been raped, repeatedly. i was young enough when it happened where pregnancy was not an option, if you catch my drift. i was so terrified by it i never even reported it, and spent the rest of my school career trapped with my rapist, and still run into him on a fairly constant basis in this shit-small town i live in. he even spoke to me once as an teen about it, just to reassure himself i was still convinced to never ever talk about it ever (which back then i still was). i am very fucked up from that in ways that go beyond just PTSD, but frankly isn't all ya'll business. so when i say that was way the fuck over the line comparison, take my word for it.

comparing GK's comment about a size discrepancy, and our further attempts to explain context to you, as though we are being similar to rape apologists..... yeah i'm very much seeing red.

so fuckin' done with this.

[Gravekeeper]

Well. Now that everyone's psychological damage has been dragged to light over a discussion about MTV.

[siead_lietrathua]

Well. Now that everyone's psychological damage has been dragged to light over a discussion about MTV.

proof that mtv is the root of all discord!

[Kheldarson]

proof that mtv is the root of all discord!

Well, it is home to pop culture icons like Beavis and Butthead and Road Rules....

[siead_lietrathua]

Well, it is home to pop culture icons like Beavis and Butthead and Road Rules....

see, phrases like that make me so glad i don't have TV sometimes.

[Sleepwalker]

MTV also used to have Aeon Flux. Speaking of poor rolemodels.

[anakhouri]

Oh I love Aeon Flux. I have the complete series on DVD!