Ferguson, MO is a warzone.

[KabeRinnaul]

Amnesty International has sent in a team to monitor the situation

After seeing the police use "he was trying to grab an officer's gun" to defend a shooting in so many different articles, it's starting to sound like Jimbo's "He's comin' right for us!" from South Park.

[Gravekeeper]

Ok, so they tried to contain them. They requested people stay off the streets from 12am-5am. Extremely reasonable.

Psst, the last crackdown occur hours before curfew. You know, the one where they yet again shot teargas at the media and shot rubber bullets at everything that moved. Also looks like the governor just lifted it. It wasn't really the greatest idea to begin with.

Give the chicken a rest, man.

The problem here is the cops here don't represent order in service of another system. The cops are both the law and order response AND the target.

Which has been grossly amplified by the fact they immediate positioned themselves as a hostile attacking force. Rather than a controlling force. Plus they keep repeated attacking and suppressing the press. Which does not help their case whatsoever. Neither does teargassing children.

This has become the most spectacularly mishandled case of civil unrest I've ever seen on this side of the pacific. And because of that, the FPD and St Louis PD have made Ferguson the epicenter of all the country's racial tension. Its become a lot larger than just the shooting of Michael Brown and at the rate the cops are mishandling it it won't matter what happens in regards to the Brown case. The police have zero credibility with the community and not much outside of the community either.

They could still quell a lot of it by finally being transparent about the investigation. ( I mean cripes, we got the independent autopsy report before the police one. The St Louis PD has it, but won't release it. ). There's STILL no incident report about the shooting released. They had no trouble releasing the one about Brown robbing a store and specifically said they did so because "you kept asking for it". But the incident report everyone wants is no where to be seen still. The incident report about the robbery even specifically refers to, by file number, the incident report about the shooting.

I mean when you have Rand "Oh shit a Mexican!" Paul acknowledging systematic racism and militarization in the police force there's a serious problem here. >.>

[Gravekeeper]

After seeing the police use "he was trying to grab an officer's gun" to defend a shooting in so many different articles, it's starting to sound like Jimbo's "He's comin' right for us!" from South Park.

Lets sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here. >.>

[AccountingDrone]

The police had to secure the scene of the crime, and gather evidence. I've viewed video evidence of this sort before . . . four hours is a bit long, but I've seen bodies left for a couple of hours while detectives and crime scene people did their thing.

Well, it isn't like there is any need to hurry to get the body somewhere. Only thing going to happen is more stuff leaking out <shrug> I would be more concerned with treating the body with respect than speed at this point.

[Gravekeeper]

Even Chief Wiggum said he was uncomfortable with how long they left the body out in the street.

In other news ( literally ) the cops don't seem to understand live broadcasts. They tried to shut down a CNN broadcast while they were live on the air. Threatened to mace MSNBC while they were live on the air. They really don't seem to grasp cameras in general, only that they are rawr bad things. They threatened to shoot Argus Radio's reporters. On camera.

They just arrested a Getty photographer too. Cameras, RAWR.

Edit: Make that two Getty photographers.

Honestly I think one of the more disturbing aspect of this entire situation has been the complete contrast between the main stream media's narrative and the actual news coming out of social media and independent news. Not to mention how slow the main stream news outlets were in even acknowledging anything was happening at all.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Well the difference there probably comes down to the fact that mainstream news cannot afford to publish unverifiable information and they're also carrying a sign that all but says "press" in the form of logos. The potential litigation is just too high whereas some guy on twitter or some guy with a hand cam can both publish a mix of anything they thought they heard and publish video no one noticed them filming.

It's good in the sense that more information can get out. It's bad in that there is absolutely no vetting behind the editing of said material an hence you can potentially have 30 minutes of provocation followed by 10 seconds of someone losing their shit and you only saw the 10 seconds. A guy from CNN pulls that stunt and there's a lawsuit. Individuals carrying the story is only as good as the type of individuals you're dealing with.

[Panacea]

that fits perfectly with the witness statements that he was shot at, ran, shot at again, and turned around with his hands raised in surrender to face the cop before being killed.
what's the conflict? what in the autopsy is so different from the witness statements that it might have been dramatically different?

also, the witnesses said the first shot took place at the car before the kid ran. any GSR on his clothes could be from that shot, and wouldn't conflict with the witnesses at all either. the lack of GSR embedded in the skin around the fatal wounds implies that he would have been head-shot from a distance. which also fits statements.

The problem is the autopsy reports also fit a completely different narrative.

If the gun fired away from Brown, there will be no residue on his clothing; there might not even be any in the car.

The lack of GSR in the wounds may or may not mean anything. Wilson says Brown was charging at him. That explains the head shot, and the lack of GSR. Wilson's statements also fit the autopsy reports.

A) I acknowledged that in the first sentence.
B) "Skip town" doesn't mean he's a fugitive. If you're going to keep deriving a hidden meaning whenever I use a specific word or figure of speech I'm going to just start linking you to a dictionary website.

I'm not deriving hidden meaning. Words have impact. You should think about the kind of impact words will have before you use them.

That's the exception, not the rule. The NYPD especially has a long, proud tradition of excessive force and harassment of minorities.

I won't defend the NYPD. But they do occasionally do the right thing in these cases.

While I would be wary of witness perception being altered by the crowd's perception or statements of initial witnesses. I think you're stretching on the light thing.

I don't. Earlier in this thread another poster thought the person robbing the store wasn't Brown because he thought the socks and shoes were different. You have to look very carefully to get the angles, and the lighting and quality of the images makes a huge difference.

You're the one splitting hairs.

Going over the rest of your post I think we're honestly at the point where we need to agree to disagree now.

Words have impact. When you use certain words, you create meanings. If you don't want to create that meaning, you have to use care with the words you choose.

can we all agree, regardless of the truth of if Brown deserved to be shot, that this is officially the worst job of controlling riots shorty of shooting them with actual bullets?

There's no question on that. I think everyone here agrees on that point.

Woah, Obama, out of nowhere! Where'd he come from? Son of a bitch is everywhere!

And what does Eric Holder have to do with it. He's the Attorney General. Is he trying to sue the protestors into submission?

The Department of Justice is run by the Attorney General. The DoJ (via the FBI) is investigating a potential civil rights case against the FPD. That report will go to Holder before it gets to Obama.

[Greenday]

So, no posts about how it literally is becoming a war one with the National Guard being activated and sent in?

Maybe if the protesters could act like mature adults and not try to destroy their own city, this wouldn't have to happen. They are an absolute disgrace to real activists trying to make a difference. They got what they wanted with the local PD stepping down. But they just took advantage of it and proved they can't be trusted. For God's sake, they are offing each other and completely disrespecting their own community. They wanted to escalate things? It's happened.

It's interesting how all these reports of the media being treated so badly, yet the media continually rips on the protesters instead of law enforcement.

[Gravekeeper]

Well the difference there probably comes down to the fact that mainstream news cannot afford to publish unverifiable information and they're also carrying a sign that all but says "press" in the form of logos. The potential litigation is just too high whereas some guy on twitter or some guy with a hand cam can both publish a mix of anything they thought they heard and publish video no one noticed them filming.

Its much more than that. I'm not talking about unverifiable information. I'm talking raw information in general. Pictures, videos, live streams, etc. all of that has been coming out of social media and news organizations not affiliated with the big three. The situation hasn't stopped Al Jazeera from being on the ground days before the rest of them. Granted they got teargassed for their efforts but its harder for the police to discredit or shut down major news outlets. So they should have been down there asap.

Furthermore, major outlets did go ahead with unverifiable information before the continued unrest forced them to actually investigate themselves. Which, granted, is standard operating procedure for Fox. But still.

The initial stories that appeared was that the protest had turned into looting and rioting ( as if by magic ). When the truth on the ground was that the protests had remained by and large peaceful until the police showed up with their new toys and started gassing everyone. But the story running in the major outlets was basically hey some black people are rioting and attacking police somewhere <shrug>. It took a few days for them to wake up and that was largely due to pressure from social media. Except for Fox of course. >.>

Now, yet gain, we have two dueling narratives running between the big three outlets, while smaller outlets and social media provide actual information from the ground. Its a sad state of affairs. Its also not helping that the Fox side narrative is the same playbook narrative we saw for Trayvon Martin, Renisha McBride, etc. They're thugs. They smoke weed. They're trash. They deserved to get shot.

It's good in the sense that more information can get out. It's bad in that there is absolutely no vetting behind the editing of said material an hence you can potentially have 30 minutes of provocation followed by 10 seconds of someone losing their shit and you only saw the 10 seconds.

That seems to be the case with this whole molotov cocktail / shots fired thing. There's like two pictures of a guy with a molotov cocktail from last week. But the police keep saying they're being attacked with molotivs and bricks and shovels and small dogs and shit. While media on the ground are saying they haven't seen anything of the sort occurring.

The coalition force on the ground was comprised of 25 different departments of which at least 4 were on the scene at any given time. No one was in command of the entire operation until the Highway patrol stepped in. Chief Wiggum admitted that any given day there would be 4 different commanders. So they were pretty much out of control. It doesn't sound like the situation has improved much either.

The governor has further fucked the situation up by calling in the national guard who rolled in with 10 humvees and full fatigues. Because a display of military force went down so well the first time. On the upside at least these people are actually trained to use their equipment. I kind of feel bad for them being called into the middle of this shit storm though.

[Gravekeeper]

So, no posts about how it literally is becoming a war one with the National Guard being activated and sent in?

Seriously, enough already. We get it. You hate protesters. Protesters are always wrong and always deserve anything done to them. The cops are always right. No matter how many videos or images show up of them assaulting the people they're suppose to be protecting. How much force they deploy or whether or not they wander a residential neighbourhood pointing rifles at civilians from the tops of military vehicles, attacking journalists and teargassing children.

Why are you even posting in this discussion if you're just going to repeatedly ignore the colossally mishandled shit storm that is this situation? You do this shit every time we discuss anything involving civil unrest.

And for the record the National Guard being activated is the governor's decision. Because hes's been handling this so well thus far. They were sent in to protect the command center that the police allege was purposed attacked by an army of "hundreds" of rioters. Though no one else has been able to verify that except for the police so far.

That's also the justification they used to attack peaceful protests in other locations, hours before the curfew and without any warning. Which is what led to them going ape shit on everyone yet again but including children this time because it was still early. Plus, of course, any and all media they could get their hands on. Including firing tear gas into the media staging area the police themselves set up for the media.

If you're so hellbent on ignoring or justifying this trampling of the Constitution and alarming militarization of the police there are a variety of other countries that might be more to your liking. I hear Iran and Syria are lovely this time of year.

[Greenday]

If you're so hellbent on ignoring or justifying this trampling of the Constitution and alarming militarization of the police there are a variety of other countries that might be more to your liking. I hear Iran and Syria are lovely this time of year.

I'm hellbent on getting people to stop trying to justify what the rioters are doing. People want to go out and hold signs and chant and complain about racism? Go for it. People want to go burn down the neighborhood? They are welcome to a good ole beatdown. You don't trash your own neighborhood. It's a disgrace.

If the media gets in the way, I'm not going to shed a tear if they get a lungful of teargas. You put yourself in the line of fire, you can't complain about what happens.

The police is wasting its time with the media. I don't know why they are randomly arresting the press or threatening to arrest them. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it.

But let's be clear about one thing: no protester's rights are being trampled.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm hellbent on getting people to stop trying to justify what the rioters are doing. People want to go out and hold signs and chant and complain about racism? Go for it. People want to go burn down the neighborhood? They are welcome to a good ole beatdown. You don't trash your own neighborhood. It's a disgrace.

A) Whose justifying the rioters?

B) How can you possibly think this situation is THAT simple?

If the media gets in the way, I'm not going to shed a tear if they get a lungful of teargas. You put yourself in the line of fire, you can't complain about what happens.

The media got teargassed in the area the police set up for them.

The police is wasting its time with the media. I don't know why they are randomly arresting the press or threatening to arrest them. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it.

Their wasting time on it because they don't like being on camera. It catches them saying things like a white cop yelling "Bring it you fucking animals" and "Get down, get the fuck out of here and get that light off, or you're getting shot with this" to a reporter for having a light on his camera or "Media do not pass us, you're getting maced next time you pass us." live on air. Or catching them using teargas when they specifically said they did not use teargas. So on and so forth.

But let's be clear about one thing: no protester's rights are being trampled.

You can not be serious. What exactly do you think happened here? Angry black mob spontaneously appeared and despite the valiant efforts of our heroes just won't go away? That all this resentment and mistrust just magically appeared overnight?

Yes, there's a smaller group of morons looking to escalate things. There always is. But the police have, by their own fucking admission, consistently been giving them exactly what they want. Rather than acting like professions. No one is in command of the situation, on EITHER side. And there is rightfully no trust whatsoever in any level of the local police or politicians. Especially now.

No one has a shred of faith in the county prosecutor either as he's been a cock for decades. He already has two dead unarmed black men shot by police under his belt that he refused to prosecute. That led to protests and a huge public uproar too. Its not like there isn't a long history of fuckery in this town from the local police and politicians.

[FMA_Fanatic]

I've kept quiet even though I'm probably about 20 minutes from where this is happening. It's insane. DaDairyDruid and I stayed away from the area I was talking to my friend and her daughter and it's hard for us to explain to her 13 year old why this is happening. We've tried to explain, but because her mother has never dealt with this and my only experience was way back when I was in high school and still living in California with the Rodney King incident, it's hard. Her school can't explain why this is happening either and it saddens me.

And I suspect that the lifting of the curfew is only going to make things worse even with the National Guard there. If you want to see what's happening at the moment, here's a live stream (hopefully it works)

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/18/live-u...d-in-ferguson/

[lordlundar]

But let's be clear about one thing: no protester's rights are being trampled.

You can not be serious. What exactly do you think happened here? Angry black mob spontaneously appeared and despite the valiant efforts of our heroes just won't go away? That all this resentment and mistrust just magically appeared overnight?

He's saying that the only ones out there are the "evil, violent rioters and looters who deserve to be put down like rabid animals." To him, there is no peaceful protestors and the "rioters" and media are trying to assault and storm the police lines despite there no evidence of it happening. So for Greenday and Pancea no protestors rights are getting trampled because there's no protestors. It's all violent thugs who deserve what they get. And the little children getting teargassed (which can be lethal to them) are thugs in training.

I imagine if they were around for the Kent State massacre they'd be saying the same thing.

[Gravekeeper]

I've kept quiet even though I'm probably about 20 minutes from where this is happening. It's insane. DaDairyDruid and I stayed away from the area I was talking to my friend and her daughter and it's hard for us to explain to her 13 year old why this is happening.

Ugh, that sucks. I heard they cancelled school in Ferguson?

And I suspect that the lifting of the curfew is only going to make things worse even with the National Guard there. If you want to see what's happening at the moment, here's a live stream (hopefully it works)

There's about 4 live streams going from different locations most of them being passed around social media. Not sure how things will go again tonight. The police didn't abide the curfew yesterday and the people looking to loot and pillage wouldn't abide it anyway. I'm not sure it was the greatest idea to begin with given the situation. But there doesn't seem to be much point in having it any longer anyhow.

Calling in the Nation Guard can't help the situation though given that it was the deployment of military force that really set it off to begin with. The National Guard are actually trained professionals however. I can't see they lowering themselves to the chaotic incompetence of the the other departments on the ground. Plus they're not suppose to be conducting any crowd control. Only protecting the "command center".

If the governor orders them away from that at the drop of a hat it'll make their deployment look pretty dubious. Given that the explanation for their deployment and the attack on peaceful protesters yesterday was that there was some sort of alleged mass assault on the command center by a small army of rioters. No one's been able to verify that except the police so far though.