Voices pt2

[Gravekeeper]

Gravekeeper:

In Australia, one of the conditions which must exist for a mental abnormality to be considered a defect (defect, illness, whatever-you-call-it) is that it must interfere with the patient's ability to live a normal life.

Oh, there's all sorts of technical phrasing that makes it much less ambiguous than how I stated it just there; but basically it amounts to 'if the person is living a happy, productive life, and their eccentricity isn't bothering them, and there's no prognosis of Bad Shit About To Happen ... leave them alone'.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I was just discussing? For the record I am using American guidelines as that is where Gilhelmi is. The same guidelines are used in Australia along side the international model provided by the World Health Organization.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Most countries use the same guidelines and we already discussed at great length exactly what you're talking about in the first thread and now in this one. If not in the exact post you just responded too.

I agree with Seshat. It's one thing to voice your concerns to a friend who, say, hears voices, but if that friend is fine with it, then there's not much anyone can do except to leave him alone.

We also covered this at length in the first thread. If schizophrenia is the root of an issue this is not the best approach. Most cases of schizophrenia grow worse over time and the worse it grows the more difficult it can be to convince the person to seek help due to the very nature of schizophrenia. But conversely, the progress of schizophrenia is easy to successfully stabilize.

Leaving the person alone, or indeed leaving anyone alone who you suspect may have a mental disorder or illness, is not a good idea. To echo Gilhemli, silence is basically the worst thing. I can attest to this first hand.

[Seshat]

Ah. I didn't 'read' that in what you were posting, Gravekeeper. Based on what I understood you to be saying, I felt it necessary to express - well, what I did.

Clearly, communication between you and I failed. My apologies for my share of that.

[Panacea]

My own concern with Gilhelmi was the possibility of anatomical or neurological damage to his auditory processing section of his brain; or to the part of the forebrain which handles social interactions, or ... well, I'm not a neurologist, but maybe there are other bits which might be affected.
It's also possible that he had/has a disorder similar to Bast's.

This should always be the first step when someone experiences something like what Gilhemi reports. It's why the Catholic Church doesn't just declare every person who claims to talk to Mary or Jesus a prophet or a miracle. Often there is an identifiable explanation for the phenomenon. Just because there isn't, doesn't automatically elevate it to the level of miracle. There are other conditions that must be met

But then, I hallucinate music fairly commonly. So .. meh.
(PS: my skull has also been examined. Apparently it's not filled with cream cheese.)

So did Brahms. So you're not the only one.

Yes, it is an absolute that brain changes will occur. There are tons of studies on the subject. Also, psychotic is just a general term for disruptions or loss of touch with reality such as hallucinations or delusions. So saying bipolar with psychotic features has hallucinations is redundant. Its kind of like saying people with colds have a cough.

Really? Cite a few.

Some bipolar's don't have the psychotic features. That's why I differentiated.

Sorry, but this is demonstrably false. Even without going into the mountain of neuroscience and just flatly looking at the occurrence of near death experiences; The prevalence NDE's are fairly rare to begin with and amongst NDE's they are not always happy head towards the light experiences. They can also be absolutely horrifying experiences. And no, research has shown there is no correlation between positive and negative NDEs and a person's actions or moral character. The rate of negative NDE's is the same regardless of age, race, gender, culture or character. As is the rate of positive ones.

I wasn't talking about NDE's. I never mentioned NDE's. I'm talking about hospice patients, people who are actually dying and will stay dead. Apples to oranges.

This is not a hallmark at all. Mental illness is a spectrum. Most people who suffer from these things are in a camp similar to Gilhemli. The crazy dude talking to a ferret on the bus is rare and a worst case scenario.

Yes, mental illness is a spectrum. But your ability to function in the real world IS impacted. I didn't say that all mentally ill people are those guys going around talking to themselves.

Impacted can mean a lot of things. It can mean your ability to hold a job. It can mean your ability to form and maintain social relationships. It can mean your ability to attend to your activities of daily living.

If you are having difficulty doing any of those things due to a hallucination, you are suffering from some aspect of mental illness.

Gilhemi isn't having any of those problems. On the contrary, he is cheerful, optimistic, and his experience seems to be enhancing his life rather than detracting from it. So absent a CT or MRI of the brain that shows a tumor or defect, I would be very hesitate to call Gilhemi mentally ill or to ascribe his experiences to mental illness.

I'm going to stop you right there because you are venturing into the realm of your personal beliefs and bringing faith into this again. You are also coming close to arguing semantics and making broad claims for which you have no evidence. Which forces me to yet again go get mountains of neurological research to explain things. When it is in fact you that this burden of proof should be on.

Is there some reason why I shouldn't bring my faith into this? I am not claiming that Gilhemi is having a religious experience. I simply explained my own, and point out that there are no physical changes on the CTs or the MRI I've had done on my brain to show any evidence of physical changes that would explain my experiences. You don't have to accept that they are from God if you don't want to. But you can't ascribe them to mental illness; there is nothing in my background or medical findings that would support that.

Hell, you can't even find my Asperger's on my CT or MRI. I had to have specialized psychological testing to get that diagnosis.

So I will just repeat what I said before: This stuff is not magic and it is not a mystery. Perception is a mechanical function and like all functions of the body it can malfunction or fail. Just because you may not know or understand the mechanics of neuroscience does not mean it becomes a mysterious or supernatural phenomena.

If you're looking out a window and the glass is foggy, it doesn't mean there's fog outside.

But sometimes the glass is, in fact, foggy.

I never said it was magical. But there is certainly plenty of mystery to be had whether you ascribe Gilhemi's (or my) experiences to mental illness or a faith experience. There are tons of things about the brain that we do NOT understand, so yes there are plenty of mysteries yet to be solved.

My personal take on this is it WOULD be in Gilhemi's best interest to get a complete physical and mental health examination given what he is experience, in order to rule out identifiable causes . . . because that is the prudent move, even if the experience is not only not distressing, but pleasant. I've never suggested anything different.

However, if physical and mental illness is ruled out, Gilhemi's free to interpret the experience as he chooses. As long as he is functioning normally in society, there is not reason why he shouldn't.

[Gravekeeper]

Really? Cite a few.

Really? Try 5 seconds on Google. >< There is a MOUNTAIN of research on this subject stretching back some odd 40 years. Even Wikipedia has an article on this. We can debate the nature of consciousness all you want in some other thread. But the structure and function of the brain is not a confounding black box to modern science.

Some bipolar's don't have the psychotic features. That's why I differentiated.

And that's not what I meant.

I wasn't talking about NDE's. I never mentioned NDE's. I'm talking about hospice patients, people who are actually dying and will stay dead. Apples to oranges.

It is not apples to oranges. You can't just pull something like that out of your arse in a debate and then wave away the scientific evidence related to it in favour of the supernatural. The burden of proof is on you here, not me. This is why I objected to you bringing your faith or personal beliefs into this. Mental disorders and illnesses are a medical issue.

Yes, mental illness is a spectrum. But your ability to function in the real world IS impacted. I didn't say that all mentally ill people are those guys going around talking to themselves.

Nor did I say that you said that.

Gilhemi isn't having any of those problems. On the contrary, he is cheerful, optimistic, and his experience seems to be enhancing his life rather than detracting from it. So absent a CT or MRI of the brain that shows a tumor or defect, I would be very hesitate to call Gilhemi mentally ill or to ascribe his experiences to mental illness.

And we would just be back to playing with the semantics of it all. I believe we already covered the difference between a disorder/condition and an illness. You just encapsulated it yourself yet again.

Is there some reason why I shouldn't bring my faith into this? I am not claiming that Gilhemi is having a religious experience. I simply explained my own, and point out that there are no physical changes on the CTs or the MRI I've had done on my brain to show any evidence of physical changes that would explain my experiences. You don't have to accept that they are from God if you don't want to. But you can't ascribe them to mental illness; there is nothing in my background or medical findings that would support that.

I'm sorry, no offence, but at what point did we begin talking about you? I've been talking about Gilhemli. Your perceived religious experiences are not the topic of discussion here. You are also still demonstrating a lack of understanding about perception and neuroscience. Every hiccup of perception is not automatically a mental illness. Many many things can affect perception. No doctor just declares you have a mental illness because of one incident. Otherwise we'd all be farking crazy.

Perception, neuroscience and human biology are funny things. People have a habit of ascribing unusual things about them to mysterious origin. If you get poked in a certain part of the brain you might smell toast. Are you really smelling toast? No, of course not. Something is just fucking with your brain. You can create the sensation of a tall, friendly person behind you just by sending an electrical stimulation to a specific part of the brain. Is that person really there? No. Are they a spirit? No. Something is just fucking with your brain. You can create a feeling of dread, sorry, anxiety, terror, chills, shivers down the spine, pressure or pushing on a person, you name it just by using low frequency noise they won't consciously perceive. Is it a warning from God? Are their ghosts nearby? No, such noises actually normal parts of nature. A wide variety of things in nature cause it. As do a wide variety of human built technologies and structures.

Heck. you can even induce hallucinations with that sort of thing.

Hell, you can't even find my Asperger's on my CT or MRI. I had to have specialized psychological testing to get that diagnosis.

...And? Asperger's is kind of a different beast and not what we are talking about. It would not show up on a CT or MRI. Though it does show up when they stick electrodes to your head. But that's generally not the go to for a diagnosis. -.-

I never said it was magical. But there is certainly plenty of mystery to be had whether you ascribe Gilhemi's (or my) experiences to mental illness or a faith experience. There are tons of things about the brain that we do NOT understand, so yes there are plenty of mysteries yet to be solved.

My problem is that people greatly discount or are unaware of what we DO understand. Foremost of which how much we understand about perception.

My personal take on this is it WOULD be in Gilhemi's best interest to get a complete physical and mental health examination given what he is experience, in order to rule out identifiable causes . . . because that is the prudent move, even if the experience is not only not distressing, but pleasant. I've never suggested anything different.

That was my personal take on it as well in the original thread and in this one.

However, if physical and mental illness is ruled out, Gilhemi's free to interpret the experience as he chooses. As long as he is functioning normally in society, there is not reason why he shouldn't.

I find it difficult to picture a scenario where a mental disorder would be ruled out in Gilhelmi's case unless the underlying cause is something more serious such as a tumor or disease. Which hopefully that is not the case. Though it is doubtful that is the case now given that Gilhelmi described early on set schizophrenia. Which is actually quite rare all things considered and in terms of brain structure is a much more profound difference than adult onset.

[Andara Bledin]

...And? Asperger's is kind of a different beast and not what we are talking about.

Actually, this is not so at all.

Both autism (they don't diagnose Asperger's any longer as there's significant dissent on whether it's a distinctly different condition or merely a variation of high-fuctioning autism) and schizophrenia are forms of neurodevelopmental disorders.

They are not illnesses or diseases; they are conditions. Dyslexia is another.

It'd be nice if in discussions about those who aren't neurotypical everybody could refrain from such stereotypically negative - and inaccurate - terminology.

My own personal take is that so long as there isn't an issue of problems, physical or psychological, down the road, then more power to you.

Also, I'm of the opinion that, within specific boundaries that I don't think I can adequately express at this time of night and as related only to the singular instance, if a person in such a position were to choose to believe that the condition was the result of angels, or God, or fairies, or magnetic resonance... so what? If it's a stable situation that is likely to remain as it is, then what does it actually matter?

[KabeRinnaul]

I think GK's point has never been "Voices? Go medicate that shit away right now!"

All he's been saying is to please don't ascribe this to the supernatural, or assume that it's benign, just because it hasn't had an impact on his quality of life yet. Just go have things examined just in case. Once medical science confirms the voices aren't the result of a brain tumor, mini-stroke, blood clot, or other damage or detectable disorders — and you have someone to keep an eye on you in case things get worse — then feel free to enjoy their conversation, whatever you think the source may be.

And a history of benign symptoms is no guarantee they'll stay that way. My father went his entire life with slight issues. My mother always thought they originated with a disease in his youth, but I forget what she said it was. But they never seemed to be more than personality quirks. Sure, he came up with bizarre ideas at times and could be a bit of a conspiracy theorist, particularly when it came to non-Protestant religions. But he was entirely functional.

And then another (relatively minor) health condition in his late 40s exacerbated things, and soon he was full-blown bipolar, with fits of rage that he'd later forget entirely, auditory hallucinations, paranoia, and sudden violent behavior, all of which culminated in a suicide attempt, at which point we could finally get him treated properly. He died at 56, largely due to the damage he'd done to himself in his suicide attempt.

[Gilhelmi]

I have found psychology fascinating. Really, if we are honest with ourselves, we understand the surface of the moon better then our own mind. Ten different doctors, Ten different theories. Everyone is different. One person might respond to theory 'A' and do poorly with theory 'B', where another (who has similar symptoms) might be the exact opposite.

Gravekeeper; ya the US military was the best decision I ever made, and has shape my current personality and out-look on life greatly. They helped me to mature and grow a good spine. BUT they have more then their fair share of issues (their issues would have to cover several threads, I am not sure they have enough space on the server to cover them all ). I suppose, the US military is a great example of the Best and the Worst America has to offer.

The US military really is getting better on mental health issues but, like any large organization, it does take time.

As a Chaplains Assistant, we were on the 'front lines' of mental health with soldiers. AR-165-1 prohibits Chaplains and Chaplains Assistants from telling anyone what is said in confidence. We could face Courts Martial for revealing sensitive information (even if a full General or a Judge were to order us, it would be an illegal order). That gave soldiers (of all backgrounds, religions/atheist/agnostic) great faith that what was said would not be repeated. We were not allowed to diagnose PTSD, or any other mental health problem, but we could help direct people to needed help and always had an open door to listen to peoples problems.

In my position, I saw the full spectrum. Some great commanders who really helped their soldier, some really bad commanders who risked peoples lives.

[cindybubbles]

Leaving the person alone, or indeed leaving anyone alone who you suspect may have a mental disorder or illness, is not a good idea. To echo Gilhemli, silence is basically the worst thing. I can attest to this first hand.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Sorry.

[Panacea]

Really? Try 5 seconds on Google. >< There is a MOUNTAIN of research on this subject stretching back some odd 40 years. Even Wikipedia has an article on this. We can debate the nature of consciousness all you want in some other thread. But the structure and function of the brain is not a confounding black box to modern science.

Wikipedia is not a scientific resource. And even if it were, you made the first claim. It is incumbent on YOU to support it. I don't have to do your homework for you. However, I've humored you and read the source. You should read it again. Nothing in there makes it an absolute that structural changes in the brain are responsible for schizophrenia. " . . . it has become increasingly clear that there is no single pathological neuropsychological or structural neuroanatomic profile, due partly to heterogeneity within the disorder."

Translation: there are a lot of possible causes. Some may be structural. Some may not.

And that's not what I meant.

Then what did you mean?

It is not apples to oranges. You can't just pull something like that out of your arse in a debate and then wave away the scientific evidence related to it in favour of the supernatural. The burden of proof is on you here, not me. This is why I objected to you bringing your faith or personal beliefs into this. Mental disorders and illnesses are a medical issue.

Certainly mental disorders and illnesses are a medical issue.

I didn't pull anything out of my arse. I described a real phenomenon that is well known in the literature in relationship to hospice care, and that I've experienced many times caring for dying patients (both as a hospice nurse, and in other nursing environments). And what I described has NOTHING to do with Near Death Experiences. So it is apples to oranges. As usual, GK, you think you know more than you do when it comes to health care issues.

NDE's are experienced by people who nearly died, but lived. They described a number of things include the "tunnel of light," profound personality changes and more. The validity of these reports is contentious because they are not well studied, and in fact hard to study because they consist primarily of anecdotes.

The visions seen by the dying, on the other hand, have been studied extensively. These persons actually do die.

Grant P, Wright S, Depner R, and Luczkiewicz D. (2014). The significance of end of life dreams and visions. Nursing Times, 110(28), p 22-4. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25087442

Nor did I say that you said that.

Then why did you use the example you did?

And we would just be back to playing with the semantics of it all. I believe we already covered the difference between a disorder/condition and an illness. You just encapsulated it yourself yet again.

I'm not playing with semantics. To make a diagnosis of a mental illness you have to meet multiple criteria. Nothing Gilhemi has said would lead me to think he meets those criteria.

I'm sorry, no offence, but at what point did we begin talking about you? I've been talking about Gilhemli. Your perceived religious experiences are not the topic of discussion here. You are also still demonstrating a lack of understanding about perception and neuroscience.

Gilhemi is reporting what he considers to be a religious experience. They share features in common with my own spiritual experiences.

There is nothing wrong with my perception or my understanding of neuroscience. I simply accept there is more to life than the scientific method, and there is no need to discuss every subject solely in that context.

Every hiccup of perception is not automatically a mental illness. Many many things can affect perception. No doctor just declares you have a mental illness because of one incident. Otherwise we'd all be farking crazy.

Finally something we agree on.

Perception, neuroscience and human biology are funny things. People have a habit of ascribing unusual things about them to mysterious origin. If you get poked in a certain part of the brain you might smell toast. Are you really smelling toast? No, of course not. Something is just fucking with your brain. You can create the sensation of a tall, friendly person behind you just by sending an electrical stimulation to a specific part of the brain. Is that person really there? No. Are they a spirit? No. Something is just fucking with your brain. You can create a feeling of dread, sorry, anxiety, terror, chills, shivers down the spine, pressure or pushing on a person, you name it just by using low frequency noise they won't consciously perceive. Is it a warning from God? Are their ghosts nearby? No, such noises actually normal parts of nature. A wide variety of things in nature cause it. As do a wide variety of human built technologies and structures.

Heck. you can even induce hallucinations with that sort of thing.

So? What's your point? Have you become an atheist now? That was never my impression; am I wrong on that?

...And? Asperger's is kind of a different beast and not what we are talking about. It would not show up on a CT or MRI. Though it does show up when they stick electrodes to your head. But that's generally not the go to for a diagnosis. -.-

And the point is, schizophrenia also does not always show up on a CT or MRI.

Asperger's does NOT show up on an EEG.

My problem is that people greatly discount or are unaware of what we DO understand. Foremost of which how much we understand about perception.

People also assume we know much more than we do.

I find it difficult to picture a scenario where a mental disorder would be ruled out in Gilhelmi's case unless the underlying cause is something more serious such as a tumor or disease. Which hopefully that is not the case. Though it is doubtful that is the case now given that Gilhelmi described early on set schizophrenia. Which is actually quite rare all things considered and in terms of brain structure is a much more profound difference than adult onset.

I highly doubt that Gilhemi would be given a diagnosis of a mental illness unless he has a LOT more going on than he's told us.

To my understanding he's said this:

1. He hears voices.
2. There are several personalities in the voices.
3. They do not encourage him to specific behaviors, but do encourage him to view the world around him in a more peaceful and accepting way.
4. They have convinced him to avoid self destructive behaviors.
5. They have never urged him to do anything harmful to himself or to others.
6. He does not see things. He is in touch with his here and now, and completely aware of his immediate surroundings and situation.

His behavior and thoughts are not disorganized. He is not delusional. He is not paranoid. He does not have a social or occupational dysfunction.

Sorry, but I don't see he meets criteria for diagnosis according to the DSM TR IV (don't have access to V).

And he makes a good point: since he does not suffer negative consequences from these voices why should he take anti-psychotic medications? They have horrible side effects.

[Hyena Dandy]

I'd be more worried that it might be a tumor or something. Maybe it will start to get worse, maybe it won't. But whether it does or doesn't is something you'll have to catch in the future. I can't see a psychologist recommending antipsychotics to someone whose hallucinations aren't damaging them. But if there is a tumor or something, that needs to be caught now.

[Seshat]

If I may summarise the things that it seems everyone agrees with...


* We're all concerned about the possibility of a tumour or other anatomical (or neurological) problem, and hope that Gilhelmi either has or will get checked for such things.
(Note: IIRC, he's said that he's been checked.)

* We all, or almost all, feel that the situation is benign and doesn't need treatment: so long as Gilhelmi's doctors find nothing scary in his head.

* If Gilhelmi's situation changes, we hope he'll get checked again.


If anyone disagrees with this, please say so. But it seems to me to be the consensus; with regard to the OP's original questions.

Gilhelmi, if I missed any part of your original questions, please say so.

[s_stabeler]

yeah, I don't think anyone particularly thinks Gilhelmi needs anti-psychotics- however, it is probably a good idea to find out if it IS a mental health issue, if nothing else, so that someone can keep an eye on it in case it does turn into something that needs treatment. That is all.

also, you'll excuse me for saying this, but I'm inclined to go with occam's razor- the simplest explanation ( a tumor or mild case of mental illness) is the simplest, and should be investigated prior to deciding it is something more exotic. As said on House MD once (though paraphrased, I believe- I can't remember the details) "if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebra"

Again, I very much doubt Ghilhelmi needs any kind of medication- especially since there is no actual threat as yet from the voices. Anti psychotics tend to be used in ore extreme cases, precisely due to their side-effects. For something minor, I would expect therapy to be more likely.

[Gravekeeper]

Wikipedia is not a scientific resource. And even if it were, you made the first claim. It is incumbent on YOU to support it. I don't have to do your homework for you.

Right, first of all. I pointed out that there is plenty of research on this subject of which a few moments on Google could bring to your fingertips. When you pressed on the matter, I pointed out that even Wikipedia had an article on this. But that is not good enough of a starting point for you. Since you cannot or will not use Google, you have the nerve to use the line "I don't have to do your homework for you." on me.

As the person that likely does more "homework" than anyone else on these forums let me take a moment to bitterly laugh at that. Right, okay, done. Moving on.

Since you can't Google:

Postmortem Evidence of Structural Brain Changes in Schizophrenia
Meta-Analysis of Regional Brain Volumes in Schizophrenia
Structural brain differences in patients with schizophrenia and schizotypal disorder
Mapping adolescent brain change reveals dynamic wave of accelerated gray matter loss in very early-onset schizophrenia.
Regional changes in brain gray and white matter in patients with schizophrenia demonstrated with voxel-based analysis of MRI.
Ventricular enlargement in schizophrenia related to volume reduction of the thalamus, striatum, and superior temporal cortex.
Association between minor physical anomalies and lateral ventricular enlargement in childhood and adolescent onset schizophrenia.
Progressive structural brain abnormalities and their relationship to clinical outcome: a longitudinal magnetic resonance imaging study early in schizophrenia.
Cerebral ventricular enlargement as a generalized feature of schizophrenia: a distribution analysis on 502 subjects.
CT abnormalities in schizophrenia. A preliminary study of their correlations with P300/P200 electrophysiological features and positive/negative symptoms.
Structural and functional abnormalities of the amygdala in schizophrenia.
Oligodendroglial density in the prefrontal cortex in schizophrenia and mood disorders: a study from the Stanley Neuropathology Consortium.
Decreased expression of mineralocorticoid receptor mRNA in the prefrontal cortex in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
Brain activation measured with fMRI during a mental arithmetic task in schizophrenia and major depression.
Unawareness of illness in chronic schizophrenia and its relationship to structural brain measures and neuropsychological tests.

And that's just scratching the surface. Need more? Is that scientific enough for you? I mean thats mostly from the exact same website you were just on and used as a reference so it must be. I found all this from the first half page of Google results. Still plenty more to go!

Then what did you mean?

I meant what I said. That hallucinations are a psychotic feature.

I didn't pull anything out of my arse. I described a real phenomenon that is well known in the literature in relationship to hospice care, and that I've experienced many times caring for dying patients (both as a hospice nurse, and in other nursing environments). And what I described has NOTHING to do with Near Death Experiences. So it is apples to oranges. As usual, GK, you think you know more than you do when it comes to health care issues.

You brought up something ancedotal from your own experience. I offered scientific explanations based on research into the subject. You're waving it off because you don't believe it is related. You are declaring that the experiences of someone who is dying and the experiences of someone who by definition is having a near death experience ( and thus DID die and was revived ) are unrelated and totally different things. When in fact the brain would be experiencing the same or similar processes and stresses. So don't play it off like I'm the one being arrogant here in my own knowledge.

Your own reference link states and I quote:

CONCLUSION:
End-of-life dreams and visions are commonly experienced during dying. These dreams and visions may be a profound source of potential meaning and comfort to the dying.

So how exactly are these totally difference apple to oranges things?

Then why did you use the example you did?

I used the example I did because you said, and I quote: "It's a hallmark of mental illness that people who consistently hear voices or see things lose their ability to function in the real world.". When that is not always the case as you yourself just pointed out in your post.

I'm not playing with semantics. To make a diagnosis of a mental illness you have to meet multiple criteria. Nothing Gilhemi has said would lead me to think he meets those criteria.

Back up a moment here. Why do you think I am arguing Gilhelmi is mentally ill? When in fact, I specifically said he had a mental condition while *I* was mentally ill by definition?

Gilhemi is reporting what he considers to be a religious experience.

What? No he's not. He's specifically stated in both threads that he doesn't know and doesn't care. You are the one that brought up religious experiences in this thread.

There is nothing wrong with my perception or my understanding of neuroscience. I simply accept there is more to life than the scientific method, and there is no need to discuss every subject solely in that context.

Clearly there is. Seeing as you appear to believe that the supernatural takes over from science under certain conditions such as impending death. When in fact the process of dying would obviously be of great biological and neurological impact.

There is no need to discuss everything in terms of the scientific method unless you are going to actively go against the scientific method.

So? What's your point? Have you become an atheist now? That was never my impression; am I wrong on that?

My point is that the kind of things people tend to blame on the supernatural have a scientific explanation. They blame the supernatural because they are not aware of what that explanation is. Its basically the God of Gaps fallacy. I don't know what happened so it must be God/Angels/Demons/Vishu/A Wizard Did It.

And this gets especially tricky when it comes to perception. Because people trust their perception even when its not logical to do so. People generally seem to think that their perception is infallible. That its not a biological process. When in fact human perception is hilariously fallible even when its working correctly. >.>

Asperger's does NOT show up on an EEG.

Guess again.

Not only does it show up but you can clearly separate it from autism using EEG readings.

I highly doubt that Gilhemi would be given a diagnosis of a mental illness unless he has a LOT more going on than he's told us.

Except, again, I said mental condition not mental illness. Which if you were following along with the thread you would know how we were differentiating the two. You would also know that no one is advocating doping Gilhemli up on heavy medications. Please see Seshat's summary above for the TL;DR version.

[Panacea]

When you pressed on the matter, I pointed out that even Wikipedia had an article on this.

Wikipedia is never a good enough starting point for me. I don't accept Wikipedia from my students, either.

Since you cannot or will not use Google, you have the nerve to use the line "I don't have to do your homework for you." on me.

If anyone has nerve here, it's you. You're the one who made the claim, you must support it with evidence.

And that's just scratching the surface. Need more? Is that scientific enough for you? I mean thats mostly from the exact same website you were just on and used as a reference so it must be. I found all this from the first half page of Google results. Still plenty more to go!

It's better. But you're still missing the point. The point is medical scientists don't have a definitive handle on what actually causes schizophrenia. How I know this is very simple: there is no medical standard for diagnosing it with imaging studies. The reason there is no medical standard for imaging studies is because there are so many variations on what we find with those studies, and we don't always know if what we see is schizophrenia or something else.

The scientific consensus on what the exact cause is, is far from settled science. You can cite all the references you want GK. It doesn't matter. When there's a gold standard for diagnostic purposes, then you'll be right. Until then, you're not.

I meant what I said. That hallucinations are a psychotic feature.

I agree hallucinations are a psychotic feature. That is a true statement. However, we don't know that what Gilhemi is experiencing is a hallucination.

You brought up something ancedotal from your own experience.

My experiences with the dying are supported by the medical and nursing literature on the subject.

I offered scientific explanations based on research into the subject. You're waving it off because you don't believe it is related.

No, I'm waving off because they are absolutely positively completely unrelated. The kinds of NDE's you were describing are a completely different experience that what I'm describing.

You are declaring that the experiences of someone who is dying and the experiences of someone who by definition is having a near death experience ( and thus DID die and was revived ) are unrelated and totally different things.

Yes, I am claiming that, because it is true. There are no studies I know of concerning NDE's that address what happens to patients undergoing the normal dying process. People who claim NDE's are usually claiming them as proof of an afterlife, and so their perceptions are colored by their religious beliefs. While there are commonalities in the experiences, the phenomenom is not well described or studied and consists of anecdotes.

The experiences of people undergoing the normal dying process are well studied.

When in fact the brain would be experiencing the same or similar processes and stresses. So don't play it off like I'm the one being arrogant here in my own knowledge.

Arrogant, yes. Knowledgeable, no. Not on this subject.

You make a big assumption when you say the brain experiences the same or similar process or stresses between a person who has a sudden, unexpected close call with death, and a person experiencing the normal end of life.

Your own reference link states and I quote:



So how exactly are these totally difference apple to oranges things?

Because there is a difference between sudden death and normal end of life that you are consistently failing to grasp.

I used the example I did because you said, and I quote: "It's a hallmark of mental illness that people who consistently hear voices or see things lose their ability to function in the real world.". When that is not always the case as you yourself just pointed out in your post.

And here's what you said: [/quote]This is not a hallmark at all. Mental illness is a spectrum. Most people who suffer from these things are in a camp similar to Gilhemli. The crazy dude talking to a ferret on the bus is rare and a worst case scenario.[/quote]

You're the one who said it was a spectrum, not me.

Back up a moment here. Why do you think I am arguing Gilhelmi is mentally ill? When in fact, I specifically said he had a mental condition while *I* was mentally ill by definition?

Everything you've argued, argues for a diagnosis of mental illness.

What? No he's not. He's specifically stated in both threads that he doesn't know and doesn't care. You are the one that brought up religious experiences in this thread.

Maybe I've misunderstood, but he's definitely left me with the impression he views this as a spiritual issue. I brought up my own experience because he's not the only one to have experiences like that.

Clearly there is. Seeing as you appear to believe that the supernatural takes over from science under certain conditions such as impending death. When in fact the process of dying would obviously be of great biological and neurological impact.

I never said the supernatural takes over from science.

There is no need to discuss everything in terms of the scientific method unless you are going to actively go against the scientific method.

There is more to the human experience than science.

My point is that the kind of things people tend to blame on the supernatural have a scientific explanation. They blame the supernatural because they are not aware of what that explanation is. Its basically the God of Gaps fallacy. I don't know what happened so it must be God/Angels/Demons/Vishu/A Wizard Did It.

Which is why a scientific explanation should be looked for, first. And if one is not found, the assumption shouldn't be to jump to the supernatural. I don't blame the supernatural, or rather attribute to the supernatural things that can't be explained with science. Faith is an aspect of the human experience, but it doesn't replace science and I've never claimed otherwise.

And this gets especially tricky when it comes to perception. Because people trust their perception even when its not logical to do so. People generally seem to think that their perception is infallible. That its not a biological process. When in fact human perception is hilariously fallible even when its working correctly. >.>

On this we agree.

Guess again.

Not only does it show up but you can clearly separate it from autism using EEG readings.

Interesting study, in a reliable source. I was not aware of this finding, but then again it's fairly recent research. Thanks for providing it. However, the authors do point out the findings are not for diagnostic use. There is still a lot more research to be done.

Except, again, I said mental condition not mental illness. Which if you were following along with the thread you would know how we were differentiating the two. You would also know that no one is advocating doping Gilhemli up on heavy medications. Please see Seshat's summary above for the TL;DR version.

Mental condition, mental illness. You're splitting hairs. Mental condition is not a medical term.

I mentioned meds because Gilhemi did in his original post. I agree with his assessment on the idea.

[Gravekeeper]

If anyone has nerve here, it's you. You're the one who made the claim, you must support it with evidence.

We're not debating the causes of socioeconomic conditions of eastern Slovakia. This is common medical knowledge with research stretching back decades.

It's better. But you're still missing the point. The point is medical scientists don't have a definitive handle on what actually causes schizophrenia.

I never said it was the cause! I said there were measurable changes in the brain. You're the one that put that nugget into my mouth and started arguing against it. You've been railing on me based on your own misunderstanding.

I agree hallucinations are a psychotic feature. That is a true statement. However, we don't know that what Gilhemi is experiencing is a hallucination.

It is, by definition, a hallucination.

No, I'm waving off because they are absolutely positively completely unrelated. The kinds of NDE's you were describing are a completely different experience that what I'm describing.

Your own references disagree with you.

Yes, I am claiming that, because it is true. There are no studies I know of concerning NDE's that address what happens to patients undergoing the normal dying process. People who claim NDE's are usually claiming them as proof of an afterlife, and so their perceptions are colored by their religious beliefs. While there are commonalities in the experiences, the phenomenom is not well described or studied and consists of anecdotes.

NDE's occur with equal frequency regardless of faith or total atheism. They also come in a variety of types ( of which not all are the pleasant light thing ). As for the process of death, that's been studied from the moment we realized death existed.

Because there is a difference between sudden death and normal end of life that you are consistently failing to grasp.

I am not failing to grasp it. I am pointing out that the brain and body would undergo the same or similar processes. Declaring that there is a separate mental and physical process for dying quickly or slowly is illogical. Similar things are going to occur. Such as cerebral hypoxia and delirium. If you are as familiar with hospice care and nursing as you say you are, you should know how common this is and why it occurs.

You're the one who said it was a spectrum, not me.

...What? Do you even know why you're arguing with me here? Because I don't.

Everything you've argued, argues for a diagnosis of mental illness.

You sincerely need to read the thread rather than skim it.

Maybe I've misunderstood, but he's definitely left me with the impression he views this as a spiritual issue. I brought up my own experience because he's not the only one to have experiences like that.

It's right there in the op. Of both threads. =/

Are they Angels? Are they my dead ancestors making sure I live right by God? Are the voices just my own means of decision making, and part of myself, without any supernatural force at play? Who knows, and I do not care.

I never said the supernatural takes over from science.

You have certainly given that impression. If that is not your intent I rescind that statement.

There is more to the human experience than science.

Yes, but by the same measure the human experience can't contradict science.

Which is why a scientific explanation should be looked for, first. And if one is not found, the assumption shouldn't be to jump to the supernatural. I don't blame the supernatural, or rather attribute to the supernatural things that can't be explained with science. Faith is an aspect of the human experience, but it doesn't replace science and I've never claimed otherwise.

I will admit and apologize for the fact that I realize I may be coming down on you too hard about this in particular because of the way the first thread went. Which is to say it went south pretty fast and got steered away from the subject which was Gilhemli's health.

Interesting study, in a reliable source. I was not aware of this finding, but then again it's fairly recent research. Thanks for providing it. However, the authors do point out the findings are not for diagnostic use. There is still a lot more research to be done.

Yes, but again I never made any claims about cause or diagnosis. Only that changes in the brain occur. Even with my PTSD there are brain changes. Heck, even without any knowledge of said changes I would know there are changes. When you get pushed to the point where you "break" into any sort of significant anxiety disorder. That's pretty much it. There's no going back. Going forward you learn to manage and adapt your life.

Mental condition, mental illness. You're splitting hairs. Mental condition is not a medical term.

Please read the thread =/

Gilhemli brought up this difference and I was just discussing it with him. I don't know why I'm being jumped on for it. And for the record the distinction being made was that you could have a mental condition ( or disorder to use the DSM term ) but not be mentally ill ( which is to say it is affecting your quality of life. )

That was the distinction. Mental illness being the point where a disorder/condition actually begins to affect your quality of life or ability to function in life. Hence Gilhemli has a mental condition but is not mentally ill. Whereas I am mentally ill. That is all we were talking about.