Healthy 24 year old granted right to die

[Kheldarson]

http://europe.newsweek.com/healthy-2...belgium-329504

Basically, a 24 year old woman who suffers from suicidal thoughts has been granted the right to be euthanized in Belgium.

Morally, I disagree with this decision, but even beyond that, I found it interesting that Belgium is seeing an increase in euthanasia cases, particularly in the young adult set, who cite depression. So I'm finding myself in agreement with Ms. Brochier in that we need better psychiatric care. Because, yes, depression is highly debilitating, and long term depression makes life nigh unbearable. But shouldn't we be striving for a world where death isn't the answer for that?

[s_stabeler]

I'm in two minds, quite honestly, but inclined to say it's not really acceptable.(the reason I'm in two minds is this was a case of depression where it sounds to me like the patient would be unable to leave a institution for the rest of their life- from the sounds of it, the woman in question felt her life unbearable.)

but yeah, while I generally support voluntary euthanasia, I only support it under strict conditions ( to whit: the patient can back out at any point up until they have taken the drugs to kill themselves, they must be of sound mind when making the decision, and there must be no prospect of them recovering from their disease.)

[Andara Bledin]

I'm not sure the "sound mind" clause works as a good indicator here; perhaps trade it out with "mentally competent" instead.

Depression is a very difficult situation, and globally, our mental health knowledge is still incredibly lacking.

I can certainly see how some situations would be better for the individual - as well as their family and friends - to allow them the opportunity to end their own life legally, and safely, and without the pain and trauma associated with improvised or spontaneous attempts at self-termination.

It's also worth noting that there is a not-insignificant percentage of those who have suicidal thoughts for whom a legitimate option of self-termination actually provides a measure of relief.

[Blue Ginger]

It's also worth noting that there is a not-insignificant percentage of those who have suicidal thoughts for whom a legitimate option of self-termination actually provides a measure of relief.

Having an exit plan with a clinic in the Netherlands is the only reason that I am still battling the demons that are depression. I still have really bad times where I can barely function and everything gets too much. When this happens, I give myself 1 couch day and then force myself to go through the motions repeating 'this is not for ever, it will change'.

I can understand what this woman is going through. I am only 30 and if it wasn't for my parents stubbornness, and my own rage at the monsters in my head, I would probably be in the same situation as her.

I have been battling depression since I was 8 years old. The first time I tried to kill myself was about 6 months later. Mum found me at the top of a cliff as I was about to jump off. It was another 3 years before I was officially diagnosed. It is so much easier to fight a battle with your own brain when you have a name for the demons.
I can not count the amount of doctors and mental health experts that tried to brush me off and say I was too young or went the opposite and tried to have me medicated to oblivion.

I hope this decision gives her relief and helps her keep fighting to get to a better place in her own mind. And I really hope that she decides that she is not going to go ahead with it for a long while yet.

[Hyena Dandy]

Similar situation, at least in the fact that I know I can kill myself at any time. Wouldn't be 'legitimate' but I know that I have so many sleeping pills at such a high dosage that I really could probably die any time I wanted. It's helped me because even at my worst when I am considering various methods of suicide, I'm able to pull myself back by reminding myself that if I really WANTED to kill myself, I could totally do it, so the fact that I'm trying to think of a way to run myself head over with my own car means that I don't really care so much about it, and it's just stress getting to the point where it's breaking me down, so the last time I made an attempt... Well, actually, was a couple months ago, but the last time before that was several years back.

[Gravekeeper]

Similar situation, at least in the fact that I know I can kill myself at any time.

Agreed. As weird as it sounds. Just knowing the option is there is a sort of relief onto itself. Which I know sounds horrible but when you live with shit like depression, or in my case, PTSD which swings back and forth between depression and sheer terror, knowing there is an "exit" plan for me if I need it gives a strange sort of security.

So, yes, I can't be morally opposed to euthanasia knowing first hand the kind of shit some people live through on a daily basis just by existing. Both pragmatically and compassionately it is much better to have the option on the table as safe/painless/peaceful than self attempted at home, etc. Someone determined to die because living is an endless nightmare is not going to be dissuaded just because euthanasia is illegal where they live. They'll just hang themselves, OD, jump off a bridge, etc instead.

They're leaving one way or another. I'd rather it be peaceful and guaranteed for them than traumatic and possibly survivable.

I mean, look at poor Robin Williams. The man had everything in the world but it still wasn't enough to save him. Because that's just how depression works. I know its difficult for people to understand from the outside looking in on someone with mental illness. But trust me, you'd contemplate slitting your wrists too. Its not a matter of feeling "sad" its a matter of simply being unable to feel love or happiness to begin with. Then the guilt that follows when you know you *should* be able to in social situations, with your family, friends, etc.

But you can't. So you just pretend like you are. You go through the motions of smiling and laughing and what not. Not because you actually feel any of that. But because you don't want to burden others with your own mental darkness. I mean fuck, 90% of what I say or do around other human beings is just acting at this point. Just operating the way I know a human being should in these situations. I can turn it on and off like a light switch thanks to, ironically, 10 years in a call centre where I had to feign it to begin with.

Sorry, that all kind of went to a dark place. -.-

[Aragarthiel]

Both pragmatically and compassionately it is much better to have the option on the table as safe/painless/peaceful than self attempted at home, etc.

This right here is what gets me. I've heard too many horror stories of suicides gone wrong, leaving people permanently disfigured or disabled. I can't imagine jumping off a cliff and living only to find out that you'll never walk again, or shooting yourself in the head and living the rest of your life with irreparable brain damage. Living with depression is already living with a pretty low quality of life, a failed suicide attempt can easily make that worse.

[Andara Bledin]

And all of that is before you get into how it affects the people around the one who attempts/succeeds.

With legal self-termination, you have the opportunity to talk to your family and loved ones and give them closure and tell them all of the things you want them to know and answer all of the questions they have, as opposed to just leaving notes and hoping you think of everything. Plus, it also avoids the trauma of someone having to find your body.

Given a solid support network, a small hurdle requirement in terms of actual health, and the opportunity to choose other, less permanent options in the meantime, I just can't see how a compassionate and just society could choose otherwise.

[Lachrymose]

There's some really good posts as well as my own opinion and experience on this in this thread from 7 years ago. (?! geesh...where the hell does the time go?)

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=596

Doesn't relate exactly to the OP, but yeah...it might be helpful.

Edit: Oh ,and this one. This is actually the one I was recalling: http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=995

Edit2: Gosh ...and this one: http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=3603

My post from the last thread listed: "I'll extend it even further and say that we should have the option to die at any time we want regardless of the circumstances.

Total control of our own lives.

Yes, that would possibly upset family, etc. but you would have to personally take that into account. "

I realize that we never have "total control" of our lives, but I really meant it in the way of "we can choose mostly how to live, we should have the option to choose when, where, and how we die."

[Racket_Man]

Sorry this is a bit long but if you read through it to the end you will see my point.


This whole situation reminds me of a short Science-Fiction story I read in a collected anthology years ago (maybe from the 1960's or 70's).

The story:

The human race has just begun to travel the stars and explore without all of the "Let's conquer/fuck up the natives" type of BS. pure exploration and interested in cooperation and knowledge exchange.

One set of explorers happens upon a planet of humanoids who seem VERY well adjusted socially, mentally, emotionally, and culturally. This is a VERY peaceful and well adjusted society/culture. A very minor clerk in the planetary history dept. is VERY intrigued by this planet. In its history he finds a massive "die off" of the planetary population. He travels to this planet to gather more information about these people.

He meets with the planets cultural minister. The minister explains the history of the planet. IT turns out that this planet was a LOT like Earth in many respects BUT they have "bred out" most mental disorders/diseases/defects. They have done this in a very interesting manner.

8000 years prior they WERE a lot like Earth human ie. wars, violence, raging discrimination, greed, many many fractions fighting for power, etc. At some point the entire planet's population decided they needed to do something.

That something was this. At an early age (say 8 - 10 years old) ALL persons had a device implanted in their brains. This device when activated would INSTANTLY kill the person. The device could ONLY be activated by the person (some built in fail safe did not allow someone else to activate it say like a very specific genetic pattern unique to that person). The device was designed that it could ONLY be activated using a VERY specific sequence of procedures that you had to KNOWINGLY and CONSCIENSELY do to literally kill yourself. Whether it was in the "heat of the moment" or planned out over time.

The Earth person is shocked at this apparent "solution". BUT the Minister explains it this way:

How do you :

1. "weed " out the mental diseases/defects/genetic defects/environmental factors in a population
2. keep the population going in an acceptable direction.
3. not bring the species to extinction.


Well you provide
1. an incentive parents/family/community to raise the young in a more caring manner, pay more attention to them, and make sure they have support in their young years
2. a planet wide support system to help with #1

The minister explains that in the early times of this the losses were staggering almost to the point of extinction. BUT as time progressed the "weeding out" process along with #1 and #2 above the losses evened out and plateaued.

The minister asks the Earth person how his own children are which starts the Earth person mind to thinking along that line. He realizes that his own children are moody, whiney, etc. He also realizes that he should be paying more attention to them and raising them to be good people. the breath of what the planet has done hits him like a ton of bricks.

The Minster makes one final statement. After 8000 years (what is 8000 years in the totality of a species) his grandchild's generation will be the first to NOT have the device implanted in their head.

The Earth person ponders this for a long time. HE then travels back to Earth and Moves his family to the planet vowing to follow their lead.



If only we here on this little dust ball would actually follow the "guidelines" of the other planet we might be a little better off.

[s_stabeler]

and yet, i can tell you another possibility with those implants:
a massive increase in suicides due to bullying, since bullies would simply apply more and more pressure until their victims no onger think themselves worth anything tgo society, and thus kill themselves.

that, and I can only imagine that peer pressure must be a huge problem- which is probably why losses were so huge. How mnay people under such a system would kill themselves who were just having a rough patch?

[TheHuckster]

You have to be really careful when talking about instituting a system that uses death to augment society for the next generation, especially to "weed out" the troubled people in society. You're talking about eugenics, and that can have very grim outcomes.

Never mind that, for me, any system which holds life and human dignity so trivially as to force people, many I'm sure unwillingly, to install telepathic self-destruct mechanisms in their brains is the pinnacle of a lapse of ethics in society.

The story you mention has some parallels to the classic Twlight Zone episode, It's A Good Life. It doesn't end well in that story.

[mjr]

The story you mention has some parallels to the classic Twlight Zone episode, It's A Good Life. It doesn't end well in that story.

Yep, everyone ends up "wished into the cornfield".

[Racket_Man]

and yet, i can tell you another possibility with those implants:
a massive increase in suicides due to bullying, since bullies would simply apply more and more pressure until their victims no onger think themselves worth anything tgo society, and thus kill themselves.

that, and I can only imagine that peer pressure must be a huge problem- which is probably why losses were so huge. How mnay people under such a system would kill themselves who were just having a rough patch?

You have to be really careful when talking about instituting a system that uses death to augment society for the next generation, especially to "weed out" the troubled people in society. You're talking about eugenics, and that can have very grim outcomes.

Never mind that, for me, any system which holds life and human dignity so trivially as to force people, many I'm sure unwillingly, to install telepathic self-destruct mechanisms in their brains is the pinnacle of a lapse of ethics in society.

************************* WARNING LONG POST ***************************

I know it has been a few days since this thread kinda died. I have several situations that required my attention.


first off the above 2 posts are hard to defend for 3 very good reasons.


The primary reason is that the STORY I summarized is about an ALIEN culture (yes that culture is on a FICTIONAL planet of NON humans). Human constructed morals, ethics, values, whatever can not apply to an ALIEN culture. Especially when that culture has NO connection to the humans on Earth whatsoever. A culture that evolved independently without influence from any other planet. A culture that was, because of its OWN destructiveness, brought to the very brink of extinction. A culture that collective decided a way out. At the point where illogic and irrational become logic and rational (MORE on this later down below).

EVEN here on Earth we have seen what happens over the millennia of human history when one culture imposes its "morals, ethics, values, whatever" on another culture. Can you say Cultural Genoside?????


Also the device was NOT telepathic in nature so it was not like I could walk up to a fellow alien and use the Vulcan Mind Meld or be a Psi Cop to kill them.


Reason #2

Morals, ethics, values, whatever are really a bit of a fantasy.

Now what are morals, ethics, values, whatever?????

They are a set of guidelines that a culture or society or a group of people have decided upon that literally guides behavior (meaning what is acceptable and what is not), decides what is right and wrong, how to treat your fellow group members, etc.

Along with these "guidelines" there may be consequences imposed for not following the guidelines.


As the saying goes: "LOOKS great on paper, but reality is another thing."

We has humans have had many many different cultures, groups of people, religions, and societies in the course of human history. There have been many many different sets of codified morals, ethic, values, whatever over that history. Some have common themes, some have had RADICALLY different views on what is acceptable/not acceptable.

Now when most of the persons of a group have set up and accepted these "guidelines", how often do we find that these "guidelines" (which are great on paper) get ignored, thrown out the window, not acknowledged, thrown under the bus faster than the blink of an eye????????


EVERY single minute of every single hour of EVERY SINGLE DAY.


How many stories do we have over at CS that are prime examples of this???? Too many to count by my reconning.

And who tries to build most of these guidelines or create the "framework" for these??????

Most of the time religion take the lead on this. Unforteunately religion in general is NO better with so called morals, ethics, values, whatever than the rest of the human race. Generally speaking religions will convienently ignore, not acknowledge, gloss over, use <whatever diety> to temporarily or permanently brush aside those "REALLY great things" that we "preach/teach/shove up your ass" BUT we can do X, Y, OR Z because <deity> told us is was OK.


Point #3

Mental health issues in general


here on our little dust ball in some backwater galaxy, we as humans have, at best a poor, at worst an appalling record on dealing with mental illness, defects, conditions, etc.


There is still, even now in the 21st century, a very very negative stigma on mental illness. In A LOT of way we have not progressed beyond the so-called Dark Ages. Yes we have made some great strides in that area BUT remember that is only been a mere few decades since the mentally ill were warehoused in at best abusive institutions and left to literally rot in the darkness out of sight out of mind. Before that it was mostly demonic possession, evil spirits, bad behavior, etc.

Yes we have shed a LOT of light on mental illness, disease, defects, etc. BUT where are the services to assist or help?????? Where is the support structures???? Where is the will of the group to address this problem/issue without the stigma??????

YES where is all of the above?????

Yes there are more drugs out there today to help, BUT it seems to me that these medications are in general just another "Just give them a pill and get them out of the office" solution with little followup or support structures. Yes the drugs are helpful (and yet some of the side effects are worse than the conditions they claim they are treating) but they are only part of the solution.


What is the solution????? I do not have all the answers BUT there has to be MORE that we as a race, culture, etc. can do.


Several perfect recent examples.

over the last 10 years our returning veterans have a VERY high suiside rate, a high PTSD rate, and a high hidden brain injury rate. The military's response:

"MAN UP and deal with it."

Very little in the way of counseling services, mental health services, medical services (well maybe with some of the vet facility pill factories that have come to light), NOT much help in general.

Here ya go ---- go into a tramatic situation, physically harmful situation, VERY stressful situation, deal with enough people who hate you, want to harm/kill you, and be stressed out during and after the experience and all we are going to give you at the end is:

Thanks (not really) for your service you are mostly on your own right now Man UP and deal with it yourself. This situation in the US military is STILL rampant throughout the system even while still active military.



The second situation I will bring up is a late member of CS who unfortuneately because of a debilitating medical condition and the psychological demands it brought committed suiside 4l years ago.

Those of us who have been around SC for a while know the story so I will not repeat it but provide this link to CS --- http://customerssuck.com/board/showthread.php?t=78990

Plaid got to a certain point where the illogical and the irrational became rational and logical. I understand where he was coming from --- the physical disease, the mental processes, the stress, the wanting to be a normal person free of said disease, live life in general free from pain and suffering, and just to be loved and accepted.

This situation hits VERY close to home as my Ex tried and almost succeeded in her suiside attempt. She had (and still has) serious physical and medical problems to deal with. Add into that some overzealous school counselor making very serious and unfounded child abuse accusations and in my Ex's case

The irrational and illogical started to sound pretty rational and logical.

She called me at work and told me what happened AND what she intended to do. I managed to get the local EMTs and police to get to her and stop/interrupt the process. Luck was there

''


HOW can we prevent situations like the above??????? HOW can we as a race/culture/society/ group deal with all of the other mental health issues??????

look to my story summary. The alien race looked back unto itself and realized things were NOT as the could have been. They themselves allowed the race toward the brink. Through introspection they created a culture that provided the support, the nurturing, the help, the infrastructure to greatly help those who could be helped/needed to be helped. Yes the actual details were sparse as the author did not choose to provide a lot of detail.

Mental health treatment even in contemporary times are messy at best. Does this really serve our race (meaning the human race as a whole????

[TheHuckster]

The primary reason is that the STORY I summarized is about an ALIEN culture (yes that culture is on a FICTIONAL planet of NON humans). Human constructed morals, ethics, values, whatever can not apply to an ALIEN culture. Especially when that culture has NO connection to the humans on Earth whatsoever. A culture that evolved independently without influence from any other planet. A culture that was, because of its OWN destructiveness, brought to the very brink of extinction. A culture that collective decided a way out. At the point where illogic and irrational become logic and rational (MORE on this later down below).

You said in the last post:

If only we here on this little dust ball would actually follow the "guidelines" of the other planet we might be a little better off.

Which indicates to me you wanted this fictional story to become reality and send us into a society where people are forced to install mechanisms in their head that will kill them if they think hard enough about suicide.

Also the device was NOT telepathic in nature so it was not like I could walk up to a fellow alien and use the Vulcan Mind Meld or be a Psi Cop to kill them.

You could cause someone to wish they were dead enough to invoke the suicide mechanism. It's pretty much the same way bullies are already doing it today, with Facebook harrassment and cyberbullying.

Reason #2

I don't even know what your point is with reason #2. It sounds like you're saying morals, because they are subjective and are instituted by hypocrites who don't even eat their own dog food, should be thrown out the window. Which means my point about forcing people to install self-destruct mechanisms in their brains against their will is being unethical is invalid. Please tell me you're not saying that.

HOW can we prevent situations like the above??????? HOW can we as a race/culture/society/ group deal with all of the other mental health issues??????

Well, the answer is certainly not installing self-destruct mechanisms in people.

I agree that mental health issues are an issue that needs to be fixed. It's also a very complicated problem that doesn't consist of just a handful of illnesses that can be easily diagnosed. Research has been ongoing, and we've made huge strides toward treating mental health patience with dignity and better care than 50 years ago, where hearing voices in your head would send you to an institution for life and submit you to electroshock therapy with no benefit. That trend is continuing to improve.

I predict in the next 10 years, after what has been going on, things will continue to improve. With more research being done to improve people's lives both individually and as a society, I think we can bring about a world that resembles the result of the alien world in the story... just with far less grim means to the end. Such a system takes time to develop, though.