What's going on at CS, lately?

[Rapscallion]

Oddly enough, the DP forum is mostly unmoderated. There's me, Jennie (she's admin, but doesn't really do any of the moderating), and Sehson who deal with any problems, but there rarely are any. In the five years or so since I started that one, I reckon we've had to ban one member (trolled on other forums before joining that one) and had to cut down one member thread when he went really off the rails. This is ignoring the spammers, of course.

Mind you, they play far rougher over there. The rules are simple - respect your fellow forumers - and I only really brought them in fairly recently. However, the folk there are often gamers/larpers and have access to quite a bit of replica weaponry - possibly something in what Rahmota says about an armed society being a polite one. We're very protective of each other, though the community has grown up together for the most part, rather than a new member being lost in a sea of fresh posts.

It's a very different place. I find the way they work fascinating.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

if they're personal friends of Raps or what, but personally I wouldn't mind seeing some new mods around CS.

Everything Raps knows about me, he's learned on the boards.

And Broomjockey, PuckishOne and I became mods about a month ago. It's difficult to get newer than us.

[horror]

Everything Raps knows about me, he's learned on the boards.

And Broomjockey, PuckishOne and I became mods about a month ago. It's difficult to get newer than us.

"New" isn't necessarily in relation to the longevity of someone's time as mod. "New" also refers to "different".
Some mods who have been there for quite a while, like Ree, do a great job.
I just don't feel that a couple mods should hold that position, mostly because of the way they speak to, and treat, other members. I know Raps has the "I pay the bills, I make the rules" kind of final decision, but if this is a situation where input is being taken from members then maybe there's a new way to choose mods.
At the moment the only thing that comes to mind is perhaps making a poll including all mods, asking who members would like to see remaining in their position, as well as allowing members to nominate others for the position, should one or two people be found unsuitable by the masses.
Naturally Raps would still have the very final say, but at least it would allow a greater input from everyone.
Now obviously a thread asking who should go and who should replace the mods would get heated at some point, so I wonder if it's possible to make all comments and poll results private, so that only the creator of the post can see what is being said. If it's not, okay, but if it is possible then why not?
So long as people gave good reasons why they think Mr. or Mrs. X should be appointed mod in place of someone else, I don't think that's terribly unreasonable.

[Rapscallion]

A poll? Undermine the mods and cause them paranoia? Can't see that happening.

If people want to feed back directly to me, my inbox is always open.

Rapscallion

[horror]

A poll? Undermine the mods and cause them paranoia? Can't see that happening.

I don't see how a poll where the only person who is able to view the results (potentially) is the creator of said poll would be undermining anyone, or causing them paranoia. It's not as though if someone were to hypothetically say something bad about one of the mods they, and other members, would see it.
Of course this is all based on the possibility of making all results and comments private.
This is also not an attack on individuals, but not everyone truly feels comfortable with confrontation, and the ability to simply choose an option in a poll would be far more comfortable for those people.

[blas87]

With all due respect, the mods are mods for a reason and I highly doubt that starting a poll to attempt to eliminate one in particular that you don't like will be successfull at all. In fact, it will just stir up controversy and hurt feelings. Despite the fact that we are all behind a computer, we are still human beings with feelings, and CS.com is not one of those sites where you are allowed to bash others and make everyone feel insignificant.

I'm not a mod, but I do feel inclined to say, if you have such a problem with moderators or how they run the site, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to stay. They are as fair as they possibly can be, I don't see how creating a poll or trying to get rid of certain mods will help anything at all.

[Pedersen]

I don't see how a poll where the only person who is able to view the results (potentially) is the creator of said poll would be undermining anyone, or causing them paranoia. It's not as though if someone were to hypothetically say something bad about one of the mods they, and other members, would see it.

You're absolutely 100% correct in this opinion, horror. In fact, I'm going to do my own poll on this real quick:

-----------------------------
Everybody, your attention please: Here's the poll question of the day:

Is horror right, and polls are a great idea for determining if mods should be kept or not?

Or is horror wrong, and polls shouldn't happen?

Please PM me with your opinions on this. Don't worry, I won't tell anybody else (including horror) what you have to say. As such, please feel free to say anything you wish in the PM as relates to horror having a good idea or a bad idea.

I'll summarize the results and post the summary in 3 days.
-----------------------------

Yep, nothing like a good old fashioned poll to find out what people are thinking without impacting the mood of anybody being discussed in the poll, right horror?

I mean, as you yourself have just pointed out, this shouldn't be undermining, or causing any paranoia, right?

[ArenaBoy]

I take it you obviously don't like the way things are run. No one's forcing you to stay at CS at all. You don't like some of the mods, understandable but I like them. You want new mods, keep in mind that this is Raps' site and he can do what he likes. The users who became mods were picked because Raps knew that they have a good posting history and are level headed; not because some watery tart lobbed a sword at them. I've never had a problem with them at all. I might disagree with them but I never have a problem with them.

About the poll: Yes, let's cause paranoia and hurt people's feelings because of a few things one person doesn't agree with. Let's give our opinion even though Raps has the final say. It'll be great. Again. Raps chose them for a reason.

You don't like one of the mods because of the way they treat other members, I've seen worse mods on other forums who were under the belief that just because they were a mod that everything they said was right. That mod you mentioned might be posting in a "rude manner" because he/she might be just sick and tired of seeing threads turn into arguments, or only has time to be mod and not Normal Person.

Again, you want to leave. Leave. No one's stopping you from leaving. People come and go anyway. No one's forcing you to stay.

Also, I've been a member of CS since July of 2006. Like DesignFox said things have changed and while I like the fact that we're linked in some way and while it brings new posters who become regulars, it usually brings along idiots who tend to snap at the slightest objection and offend the regulars. I had to deal with a poster like that on a Chelsea board and he damn near ruined that board. We all just decided to make an effort to put him on ignore. It worked and he hasn't popped up in a while. The mods have to be strict for a reason.

Here's what the mod said to this problem poster and would somewhat reflect Raps' attitude.

This forum is not a democracy. Its a dictatorship. We make sure the threads and posts run on time. I don't even claim to be particularly benevolent.
However, we are not without sympathy. If you wish to rail against the perceived injustices done to you, you may do so from somewhere else. Because, like it or not, you don't have any "freedom" or "democracy" here. This isn't an organized system of government. Its a community. Its a community that has evolved over a long number of years. Some members have come and some have gone. But it remains. And if you want to be a part of that, you should play by its rules. And if you don't, then no one forces you to post here.

[horror]

You're absolutely 100% correct in this opinion, horror. In fact, I'm going to do my own poll on this real quick:

-----------------------------
Everybody, your attention please: Here's the poll question of the day:

Is horror right, and polls are a great idea for determining if mods should be kept or not?

Or is horror wrong, and polls shouldn't happen?

Please PM me with your opinions on this. Don't worry, I won't tell anybody else (including horror) what you have to say. As such, please feel free to say anything you wish in the PM as relates to horror having a good idea or a bad idea.

I'll summarize the results and post the summary in 3 days.
-----------------------------

Yep, nothing like a good old fashioned poll to find out what people are thinking without impacting the mood of anybody being discussed in the poll, right horror?

I mean, as you yourself have just pointed out, this shouldn't be undermining, or causing any paranoia, right?

hahahaha I look forward to reading the results. Don't forget to let me know when they're in.

[DesignFox]

I, personally, don't have any problems with any of the mods.

I don't see any reason for polling or voting. I don't watch the forum nearly as closely as Raps does, or any of the more active mods do. In fact, sometimes I disappear for a few days. Who would I be to decide who should be a mod and who shouldn't? I don't see all the things they do behind the scenes...I imagine that their job is pretty tough.

I've learned in retail- don't bash on the manager until you try to do the job yourself... you'll be in for a rude awakening. Managing anything is hard work! It's HARD to find the happy medium between playing "boss" and being the "good guy" and sometimes you don't have time to be both. You have to do what's right for your store first and foremost. I once had a DM tell me that it wasn't the assistant manager's job to be liked- it was their job to be RIGHT. I like to think a better balance can be found than that...but sometimes, you can only pick one.

In the best interest of EVERYONE on the forum, sometimes, the mods just have to be RIGHT- or try to be. And I HAVE seen mods apologize when they THOUGHT what they did was right, but it turned out to be a mistake...

I'm sorry that you don't agree with the way things are handled, Horror. I don't know what happened or what offended you, but I hope you can speak with the moderator and work out your differences. If you cannot, and you choose to leave, then farewell.

[horror]

I'm sorry that you don't agree with the way things are handled, Horror. I don't know what happened or what offended you, but I hope you can speak with the moderator and work out your differences. If you cannot, and you choose to leave, then farewell.

Who said I was leaving CS? I'm not just going to pick up my toys and go home because one of the kids on the playground doesn't know how to play nice.
I was offering my suggestions as to how things could potentially be done, and instead of offering counter arguments I was met with immature rebuttals like the one from Pedersen.
But hey, that's what I get for opening my yap.

[DesignFox]

Well, I'm glad you aren't going, then.

It's hard to tell someone's tone from their writing sometimes... I guess I was reading more upset into your thoughts than was really there.

Moving on... any other thoughts?

[horror]

Well, I'm glad you aren't going, then.

It's hard to tell someone's tone from their writing sometimes... I guess I was reading more upset into your thoughts than was really there.

Moving on... any other thoughts?

Well seeing as my first two ideas didn't fly I'm fresh out for now. Maybe when my fever subsides I'll come up with something more acceptable to everyone. I know most people like the "just don't read what they write" approach but I've always been of the opinion that it's best to solve an issue rather than ignore it. However I have considered adding this person to my ignore list, but since they're a moderator such a thing is an impossibility.
Meh.

[Ree]

The beauty of fratching is that people are much more free to offer their opinions about things that they wouldn't comment on over on the CS board.
I think it's great that someone has opened this discussion, as there is always room for new ideas and feedback.

Nobody likes criticism. I know I don't always handle it well.
The truth is, until I saw that compliment from horror, I honestly thought her complaint was about me.

There have been a few times when I know I have let emotions get in the way, or when I was going through some things in my personal life, or was just too stressed, when I haven't exactly acted as a good example of a moderator.
Those are times when I honestly knew better and should have stepped away from the keyboard, but I didn't.

We mods are human and we make mistakes, but that's why we have a team.
What a lot of people don't realize is that we are all in close communication with each other on each and every moderation done on these sites.

We post in our moderator forum and ask for advice or suggestions, or for critiques on how we handled something. We will email or PM each other if we aren't sure how to handle something.
We all support each other.
No mod works in an isolated environment.
We sometimes forward or even carbon copy our PM's to Raps for his input, or we post them in our mod forum so other mods can see what's going on.
Sometimes, we will do a rough draft and post if so others can tell us where to edit, if needed.

When members report a post, it goes to this moderator forum, and the mod who gets to the report first will post to let the others know how it was handled.
Sometimes, we see these messages, but other times, we don't check there first and jump on a report, so it can look like overkill if two mods show up and start acting, especially if both of them have very unique styles that are polar opposites.

On the old board, under the former owner, I believe I was the last mod appointed before the board was hacked for the last time, and then sold to Raps.
I can't speak as an expert as to how mods were appointed there, but I believe it was offered to some who had proven themselves on the board.
From time to time, Mr Slugger would find it necessary to appoint a new mod.
There was one time he he was looking for new mods and he did ask the board to nominate their choices.
He selected from those names put forward.

I think, in my case, the mod team nominated me.

On the new board, there were a lot of changes and Raps found himself in need of some new mods.
We mods talked among ourselves and put forward several candidates that we felt had carried themselves well on the board.
From all the names put forward, we discussed the pros and cons of each one and from there, it was put to a vote and the list was pared down to 4 excellent people.
They became part of the new mod team.

Not long ago, it was decided that we needed a few more mods.

We went through the same process again and came up with 3 very capable and competent moderators.

Our team is very diverse.
We have some who are very laid back and nothing fazes them.
We have some who lean more to the conservative side.
We have some who are more liberal.
Some are very active, and some visit or act in a mod capacity only occasionally.
Some have tact and a cool head, and some can be quite blunt and to the point.
Some have the patience of Job, and some do not suffer fools gladly and do not tolerate BS.

I think this diversity makes for a great team.

While it may seem to some that a certain mod is over the top and makes questionable decisions, please know that, even though other mods may have handled it differently, they fully support that mod.
If we feel very strongly that they didn't handle things very well, or have added fuel to the fire with their approach, we will be honest with them and offer support and constructive ways for the next time. (I have been on the receiving end of a few of those.)

Anyone who has an issue with the way any of the moderators handle themselves is free to simply PM Raps with those concerns.
That's the easiest most democratic and most effective way to handle it.
I can assure you that he will address the problem with the mod.

I do feel there is something to be said for horror's suggestions, to a point.
I am wondering, the next time we need a mod, what is the viability of opening it up to the membership for nominations via PM to Raps or a mod?

I certainly don't feel that opening up a private poll is an ideal way to handle your current problem, but I thank you for at least trying to offer a solution, rather than simply hitting and running by slamming a mod and offering no constructive idea for resolving the issue.

[Seshat]

not because some watery tart lobbed a sword at them.

It's a good thing I was obeying rule 1.

However I have considered adding this person to my ignore list, but since they're a moderator such a thing is an impossibility.

Horror,

I'm afraid that we simply can't help you unless you can be more specific. I know you believe the person who upsets you to be "rude, condescending and snide", and presumably this is also the person who is "responding to the posters like they're children".

To you, this probably clearly defines which mod it is, and which specific behaviours are offensive. However, I've discovered that once you cross cultural boundaries, definitions of 'rude' behaviours change.

I've had a person contact the head of my ISP and tell me I should be banned from the internet - because I called myself a bitch in a correspondence with her. Or then there's people from Georgia calling everyone 'honey' and 'dear' - and people from New York finding that behaviour incredibly patronising.

Given the wide variety of what constitutes 'rude, condescending and snide', and what constitutes 'treating people as children' - well, we honestly can't tell who you mean.

So. You have a problem with a moderator. Rapscallion suggested you speak to him about it. I suggested that if your problem was with Raps, you speak to any mod about it. Heck, if you have a problem with any moderator, you can speak to any moderator about it. We're mostly level-headed people, we understand that personality conflicts happen. Also that cultural conflicts happen, and also that humans - which we all are - make mistakes.

However, "[you] don't feel comfortable speaking to any of the mods". Well. That makes things tough.

Why don't you feel comfortable? Apparently at least some of us post like"they know they have more power than the rest of us". Well, I post in the awareness that I have more responsibility than I did pre-mod. Do I have more power? Nah. The single greatest power I have is the power to silence someone on one tiny forum in a vast internet - and even then, the other mods or Raps can override me with the press of a few buttons.
Are you sure you aren't mistaking awareness-of-responsibility for power?

So how can we solve the problem of the mod who makes you uncomfortable? You suggested we run a poll. To avoid the problems of a public poll, you suggested that comments be private. Good plan. But: that would require everyone who commented in the poll to trust the person who ran it. What if the person who ran the poll was the very same moderator you have so much of a problem with?

(Besides which, running a wide-reaching poll because one member is uncomfortable with one mod is a bit like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.)

Well seeing as my first two ideas didn't fly I'm fresh out for now.

I'm aware of the poll idea - what was the other?

As for my own ideas: all I can think of is an anonymous 'comment box' which the mods or Raps can read, but we can't tell who made the comment. I can see that being troll heaven, though.

Beyond that: be brave! All the mods now know you think one of us is condescending, rude and snide, and that none of us can be trusted to listen to your complaints in a polite, respectful, even-handed manner. Honestly, how much worse can it be? Do we have the fleas of a thousand camels infesting our underwear? Are we cursed to live in interesting times? Do you bite your thumb at us?





And to answer a couple of other comments I found while looking for your second idea:

"New" isn't necessarily in relation to the longevity of someone's time as mod. "New" also refers to "different".

Well, that's a new and different definition of the word new! Which culture uses that? Mine doesn't. (This is a genuine, not rhetorical, question.)

We mods are VASTLY different! We come from different cultural backgrounds, different religious backgrounds, and for all I know, different racial backgrounds. (I have no idea who's what race, except for me.)

The only thing we have in common is the ability to handle disagreement and criticism without going all capslock on each other.

so scolding a member in a thread is really a dick move on the mods part.

I attempt not to scold individual members in a thread, though I do sometimes highlight something an individual member said as an example of a behaviour to avoid. I realise I may not always make it clear that I'm not scolding that individual member, and will attempt to be clearer about it in the future.

For the most part, when I publically moderate in a thread, it's because the thread is getting off topic for either CS, or for that section of CS. Posting a private message isn't going to pull the thread back on topic: it has to be a threadwide change.

Pulling the thread back on topic only affects people who post to the thread after my public action, so posting in the thread is the most effective way to reach all those people.

Who said I was leaving CS?

You did. Well, okay. You said you might be leaving.

In your first post in this thread, you said:

Overall posting on CS and even reading CS has become far less enjoyable, mostly due to the people's attitude. I think people should either shape up or ship out (or be forced out).
Personally I seem to be leaning more towards the "ship out" option.
Though I'm sure many will view that
as an, "I'M NEVER SHOPPING HERE AGAIN!" remark. Oh well.