One way arguments

[DrFaroohk]

I hate how like your boss can use an excuse, but you can't. You might, say, tell your boss that there's a maintenance issue. It doesn't get fixed. "Well gee whiz I forgot. No big deal." He'll say. "In fact it's YOUR fault for not hounding me more about it!"

Oh, ok. That's cool.

Then flip it around.

Your boss says "I need you to do this." Then you don't. "Well gee whiz boss, I just plain forgot. I'm really busy. Maybe you should have reminded me about it."

"THAT'S NO EXCUSE!"

Well it was yesterday. What cataclysmic event happened in the last 24 hours that suddenly made it not ok? Did Jesus return? Did aliens conquer the earth? Did I become a Paladin last night so I must be perfect, but you can be all flawed and shit?

You can even apply this elsewhere in life. Any authority figure, for one. Which I believe that authority figures must be held to a higher standard because they should have to obey the same rules, AND set the example. Or it could even be something else entirely. My point being that it's either fair both ways, or it's not allowed. Sure, go ahead and do it anyway, but do you really think that's going to save you?

[Hobbs]

Apply elsewhere in life? Ok, here's one.

A cadet gives me a suggestion. I file it away, but like is wont with me, I forgot. Cadet says, "Hey, sir I thought I..." to which I reply, "Sorry, I forgot. You should really send me a memo so that I don't forget."

Whereas I see cadet and say, "Do X" and later on I show up and ask, "Why didn't you do X?" Cadet replies, "I forgot, sir." To which my answer is...survey says! "That's not an excuse. I gave you an order, cadet. Don't make me have to remind you again."

[DrFaroohk]

Yeah, and that sucks. Why is it ok for you to forget, but not him? Just because you outrank him? In order to outrank him you should be BETTER than he is, SUPERIOR, as a SUPERIOR OFFICER, and in order to do that you have to be held to a higher standard.

[Hobbs]

Excuse me, but what exactly is your criteria to lead? Do you know that in the above scenario, I was directly responsible for overseeing the logistical needs of over 200 cadets? Of which, I had to prepare nearly 50 for Field Training and another 30 or so for commissioning? I can't be required to remember every minute thing told to me during a random encounter in a corridor. For him, he was giving me a suggestion; whereas I was issuing an order. Clearly put, as a Superior Officer, my orders are to be followed. I do not have any obligation to follow up a subordinates suggestions, or to humor them if I don't want to. No offense intended, but you wouldn't last long in the service.

[Stormraven]

Bingo. And the same thing goes with most managers, too. The manager is dealing with multiple employees on any given day (most often - depends on the job and the manager) and things will often come up which chase other things from the manager's mind.

Thus, it becomes the responsibility of the people most affected by an outage (or other situation) to keep the manager informed of the status - even if all that means is reminding him that he needs to call maintenance.

[Jack]

I see a difference between making a suggestion which may be forgotten (as opposed to an order from a superior which should hold precedence), and a stated need to contact maintenance to fix a problem. If I were an employee who notified my boss of a maintenance issue that needs to be fixed, I would expect the boss to take the responsibility (assuming it is his to take) of contacting maintenance and getting it taken care of, not to blame me for not acting as his personal damn talking calendar. I refuse to be held to blame for not informing my boss of his tasks more than once. If he shouldn't have to tell me what I need to do more than once it should go both ways.

If it's something that I personally want then I might feel it appropriate to have to remind him of the request.

[DrFaroohk]

Exactly. I'm not talking about a suggestion in passing, I'm talking about something that is the manager's JOB. Such as if I log a complaint with HR about my benefits being delayed, I expect them to take care of it. If I injure myself on the job, and then I go to the boss's office and let him know, and he says "Ok, I'll contact you later to fill out the paperwork." and he doesn't, well tough shit, it's his job. It's not my job to hound him. It is HIS JOB to see to it that the paperwork gets properly filed for an injury at work.

And again with the one way, I'm busy too. I've got all these different tasks to do as well. Probably just as much as a manager. Maybe not as complicated, but still a lot. You have 30 employees to manage? You have a bunch of paperwork to do? I have 3,000 boxes of fish I have to get prepared to ship today by 5 p.m. I have three forklifts running around constantly, being driven by guys whose motto is get the fuck out of the way. But that's why he's the boss - he's supposed to be capable enough to handle that stuff.

And no shit I wouldn't last in the military - that's why I didn't join. I'd probably get kicked out my first day when I said to the drill sargent "You wanna say that again without the pissy attitude?" But don't get me wrong - I do have a tremendous amount of respect for people who ARE in the military, whether they're an ace sniper, commando, or just a cook - because I have a pretty good idea of the shit they have to deal with.

All I'm really trying to get at is that the same rules should apply to everyone. Is that so much to ask?

[Jack]

Thanks for elaborating on that. I had trouble coming up with real-world examples to fortify my own post. :P

By the way, you'd probably not get kicked out for that, but you would get very fit (or you'd learn better).

[blas87]

Oh that just pisses me off, both at work and in my relationships with friends and family and of course, the bf.

I don't get any excuses.

[Hobbs]

"Ok, I'll contact you later to fill out the paperwork." and he doesn't, well tough shit, it's his job. It's not my job to hound him. It is HIS JOB to see to it that the paperwork gets properly filed for an injury at work.

How much time would you allow for such paperwork to be processed? As an officer, I'm going to have tons of paperwork, meetings, counselings, evaluations and a myriad of other things to attend to on my desk. No offense, but your complaint takes up one sheet of paper in the stack in my in-box.

And no shit I wouldn't last in the military.

That's "No shit, sir."

All I'm really trying to get at is that the same rules should apply to everyone. Is that so much to ask?

The same rules do apply to everyone, but not everyone has the same responsibilities. You have a responsibility to your job; I have one to 200+ individuals.

[DrFaroohk]

Yeah, it sucks. And then people are like "Why are you always making excuses?" Because everyone's blaming me for everything! DUH! Reminds me of in school, if I got in a fight....."Well what happened?" "DrFaroohk called me names!" "Oh, well DrFaroohk, you deserved it."

Flip it around...."DrFaroohk, what happened?" "He was calling ME names!" "WELL THAT'S NO EXCUSE! DIE, MAGGOT!"

Or at work....

"DrFaroohk, why is your work performance so shitty right now?"

"I have a lot on my mind. I just got divorced."

"THAT'S NO EXCUSE! You leave your personal life at HOME!"

Flip it around..."DrFaroohk, why did you write up Charlie?"

"Because his work performance is shitty."

"Hey, ease up. He's going through some real tough personal problems right now."

Or pregnancy...my age old argument of the woman not taking her pills. I get told that it's my own fault, if I didn't want a child, it's my fault, I should have worn a condom, because even if she'd been taking her pill, it's not 100% effective.

You can say those same exact things about condoms. It's not my fault I wasn't wearing a condom, because they don't work 100% of the time either, and if she wasn't ready for a child she should have taken her pills!

But noooooooooooooooo, that's just wroooooooooooooooong.

Yeah. It gets maddening some days.

[Hobbs]

Or pregnancy...my age old argument of the woman not taking her pills. I get told that it's my own fault, if I didn't want a child, it's my fault, I should have worn a condom, because even if she'd been taking her pill, it's not 100% effective.

It takes two to make a child. So if you didn't want one, you should have worn a condom, regardless of whether or not your partner was on birth control or not. Stop trying to blame people for your mistakes.

[blas87]

Still feel for ya. Some people are just not allowed excuses or breaks, while others are always given slack and leeway. Both at work and at home.

It's not fair, and I hate it.

[Stormraven]

I will agree that there are many situations like that where it's a double standard. And double standards suck. No argument there.

Thing is, I have had management training, and quickly came to the understanding that I don't ever want to be a manager. I don't want that level of responsibility or work. I'm happiest as a technician - and I'll be just as happy to let someone else handle the work necessary to keep five to fifteen people going at their jobs.