That Makes Sense...in a Black and White World

[Andara Bledin]

I believe the creators because it's the habit to make things worse when people give them shit about it being bad.

They did this with the John Denver episode. The censors didn't like it, so they left everything that wasn't liked in, and just added more stuff, which got a pass from the same exact people.

They probably rewrote the Scientology episode to be worse specifically to twit Hayes for being a hypocrite.

Plus, it's kind of hard to take Scientology seriously when it was created out of whole cloth by a sci-fi author who, according to first-hand reports*, created it on as the result of a bar bet.

[*Larry Niven, when queried back in '94, said that he was there, though he wasn't involved in the bet.]

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Well that's really the topic of the Religion thread about mocking religion isn't it?

They could wail on Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism if they cared to. Do we think those religions WEREN'T started by their ought century equivalents of Sci-Fi authors? I mean we're giving them credit for someone actually having stone tablets and religiously sanctioned sexual positions.

I'm being reductive, but that's the point. That's exactly what South Park was in this case wheras they had not been previously. They've been reductive with other topics but Trapped in the Closet is the first time they did it with a religion.

It should be noted that Parker and Stone said Hayes didn't seem to angry at the time, so I'm not inclined to believe they weren't being punitive until Chef Returns. Chef wasn't in Trapped at all so he wouldn't have known the content about it until the air date and Comedy Central would have had the episode before they briefly pulled it so it couldn't have been subsequently changed.

[Gravekeeper]

Plus, it's kind of hard to take Scientology seriously when it was created out of whole cloth by a sci-fi author who, according to first-hand reports*, created it on as the result of a bar bet.

He was also a paranoid lunatic that thought an international conspiracy of Nazis was out to destroy him. So there's that too. -.-

But given that its actively destructive cult/pyramid scheme I have zilch sympathy for it. Even putting aside its dubious origins, this is a "religion" that quite literally pays people commission for getting new converts. While requiring all its members to pay a % of their income and encouraging members to cut ties with their family, friends, etc.

Never mind the fact they sue practically anyone that looks at them sideways ( if you're lucky anyway. Otherwise they will conspire to have you committed to a mental asylum >.> ) and pull shit like the biggest infiltration of the US government in history.

So yeah, fuck em. They deserve every ounce of flak thrown at them.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

All I read there was "ok to hate this group because reasons" and those reasons were by and large things that can be dumped on Christianity as well historically (at least if you want to get into the Popes and the Borgias, tithing, infiltration of governments, and missionary priests.)

I'm ok with people hating Scientology if hate is a worthwhile thing for you. I'm just saying when you take that kind of thing out on someone you work with (Isaac Hayes) and you make no attempt to let anyone appear sane who is a Scientologist, that's not Hayes being unreasonable because that's atypical even for South Park.

That's Hayes dealing with hatred. This discussion was not about South Park and Scientology. This discussion was Isaac Hayes who by all accounts was a kind man (per Matt and Trey) who they'd worked with for years who was a Scientologist.

[Gravekeeper]

All I read there was "ok to hate this group because reasons" and those reasons were by and large things that can be dumped on Christianity as well historically (at least if you want to get into the Popes and the Borgias, tithing, infiltration of governments, and missionary priests.)

First of all I didn't even say the word "hate". Just that they deserve all the criticism leveled at them.

Second of all, historically is not the same as currently. You can frame almost anything horribly if you go back far enough in history. Scientology is responsible for some really serious and terrible things. Right now. Today. Not a few hundred years ago during the Crusades or something.

Many of its members, including Hubbard himself and his wife, have been arrested and convicted of things ranging from fraud to espionage. ( They had 5000 people infiltrate the US government to destroy documents that were "unfavourable" to them or Hubbard for fark sakes ). Their official policy is to attack/destroy anyone who criticizes them. Including conspiring to have people committed or to frame them for crimes to have them arrested. Never mind basically suing everyone or thing that so much as mentions their name. They spend around 20 mil a year just suing people, media outlets and the government. Heck even commenters on the internet.

Its not even that they win or anything. They simply file as many lawsuits, legal objections, motions, etc as possible against the target until they destroy it financially and/or psychologically through years of legal battles. They sued Time magazine for writing about them and dragged them into a 5 year legal battle. Hell, they sued one poor fucker for 20 years.

Now, as for Hayes, no, he was not dealing with hatred from Matt and Trey. As was said, Hayes had no problem with everyone else being satirized for 10 years on the show but when it came around to Scientology he suddenly a different standard However, it seems a good portion of that problem came from the church ( remember, attack all criticism is the official church policy ) and it was later revealed that some of the statements attributed to Hayes were actually released by his agent ( also a Scientologist ) in his name. Hayes himself had suffered a stroke and was in declining health.

By all accounts there was never any "hate" between Hayes, Matt and Trey. Hence the show dedicated an episode to him after his death.

[protege]

Now, as for Hayes, no, he was not dealing with hatred from Matt and Trey. As was said, Hayes had no problem with everyone else being satirized for 10 years on the show but when it came around to Scientology he suddenly a different standard However, it seems a good portion of that problem came from the church ( remember, attack all criticism is the official church policy ) and it was later revealed that some of the statements attributed to Hayes were actually released by his agent ( also a Scientologist ) in his name. Hayes himself had suffered a stroke and was in declining health.

We'll never really know for sure. But, I do remember reading that Hayes himself didn't like the way Scientology was presented, but he understood what Matt & Trey were up to. According to him, they weren't paying him enough, so he wanted out. Everything I've seen seems to indicate that it was just his turn in the barrel, and that there wasn't any hatred.

But, it wouldn't surprise me if people from his "Super Adventure Club" decided to be assholes...and that's why they were presented as child molesters.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Here's why I use the term hatred and I knew people would disagree with me. When you say something like:

"So yeah, fuck em. They deserve every ounce of flak thrown at them. "

That does not suggest rational thought. "Every ounce of flak" means every, not deserved. It's all deserved because they are X. If I were to substitute another protected class for "they" in that statement, how do you figure that flies as anything but? That's my rationale for that word and it wasn't an accidental choice. I don't care what L. Ron Hubbard did. He (crackpot that he was) is not every member of Scientology and he doesn't get secondary comeuppance points when someone is an asshat to some random person who is a Scientologist.

As for the rest of it, you are continually not addressing my textual arguments from the show. If you can show me a religion where Matt and Trey attacked the believer directly for believing without qualifier, I'll retract my statement. I do not mean for cooky rituals (Easter or Passover), Iconography (anything with Jesus or Satan), or cultural wackiness. "All About Mormons" is the closest they ever get to that and by god if they don't go on to make Mormon's look like the most well adjusted but off people you'll ever meet. There's a sweetness to it.

I'm not trying to appeal to authority here (as I'm not sure what watching every episode at least twice suggests about me but none of it's good), but in what they actually did I can find no actual analogy to what they did in this case to a religious group, save maybe for what they did to NAMBLA which wasn't religious. If someone has that analogy but where a religion was unrepentantly savaged, please bring that up.

As for the bit about Hayes was incapacitated already, protoge covered it.

It doesn't make sense to keep debating Hayes hypocrisy like a fact if you can't really prove the hypocritical nature of it. Being ok with satire does not immediately follow that you have no lines. Show me the episode, and I'll stand corrected. I get that people believe he is but I'm suggesting perhaps (just perhaps) antipathy towards Scientology is clouding the issue into people seeing some sort of analogy that doesn't exist.

Yea, Hayes probably could have looked past it. I would not expect a man who was on the Scientology orientation video to though. Regardless of what I think of the religion, he was a believer. And honestly, the guy was humanitarian as hell and had a show outside of South Park, so taking away his agency with no other proof than he had a tiff with Matt and Trey is kind of awful.

[Gravekeeper]

But, it wouldn't surprise me if people from his "Super Adventure Club" decided to be assholes...and that's why they were presented as child molesters.

I think the not paying him enough was just a later "official" excuse. Seeing how his finances went to nothing after leaving the show. Matt & Trey said it seemed like he was being pressured by other people around him and that it sucked since they knew him as a really mellow kind of guy. Which would fit the MO of the Super Adventure Club.

He (crackpot that he was) is not every member of Scientology and he doesn't get secondary comeuppance points when someone is an asshat to some random person who is a Scientologist.

Again, it is not what they did, it is what they are doing. As in right now. Even categorizing it as a religion is a mistake, frankly. It is part cult and part pyramid scheme. There's a reason its main proponents are disgustingly rich. This is like appealing that their are true, sane believers amongst the KKK. Sure, there are, but they're the KKK.

I mean if I was a Scientologist I'd be dead ( and they have actually killed at least one person ) since they run "rehab" programs but deny psychology and psychiatry as well as related medications. Hence they did get one poor woman killed ( and were charged with practising medicine without a license and sued for wrongful death as a result. )

As for the rest of it, you are continually not addressing my textual arguments from the show. If you can show me a religion where Matt and Trey attacked the believer directly for believing without qualifier, I'll retract my statement.

Sure, the KKK in the show or similar organizations. You keep equating Scientology with major religions. It is not. Its only accepted as a religion in a handful of countries. Other countries considered it a business at best or a cult at worst.

As for the "believer". You have to literally pay to believe with Scientology. Its not a matter of faith its a matter of money. You or I could not be believers in Scientology ( well, not unless you have an extra 50 grand hanging around for lesson fees? ). This is how it all works. Each progressive level requires you to pay more. 10% of what you pay goes to the person that recruited you as commission, 10% of what they get goes to the person that recruited them up to the franchise holder ( Yes, Scientology has franchises. ). 15% of what a franchise earns goes back to the main organization. Additionally, all members pay 10% gross income to the "church". Hence why it likes rich celebrities so much.

Its like if you went to Church and it costs you $15 to hear the story of Genesis. Then the next chapter was $50, then $200, then $500, then the New Testament was $8000 and you had to attend a camp and swear off contact with your friends and family. You go up the chain till you either become a recruiter yourself and get in on the scheme or you run out of money after they bilk you for 600 grand and the "church" no longer has any use for you. If you're lucky anyway. If you run out of money they actually give you another course ( again for a low low price of $35 ) to help you "unlock your money making potential" ( so you can give more money to them. Oh, and you can't go up a level until the person making a commission off of you says you're ready. So they can keep making you take courses again ( which cost more money of course ) until they say you can go up another level.

Mormons, conversely, while having a stupid origin story, don't actively go around destroying people's lives for money.

Hayes, ironically, may have been a victim of his own "faith" here too. The Scientology episode was 100% accurate to its teachings. But the information South Park depicted was the super high level stuff that is only revealed after you give them about half a million dollars or so. Then they will only tell you at sea on board their cruise ship. ( No, really ). Hayes may not have been at that...operating thetan level....in the church yet judging by how he said he complained to Mark and Trey that the stuff in the episode was BS.

Matt and Trey didn't hurt Hayes, Scientology did.

[telecom_goddess]

Getting a drivers' license = Car.


Having a car means you now have even more expenses than before. Gas, tires, windshields, insurance, time missed from work because you're stuck in traffic or broken down on the side of the road.

Suffice it to say I have never been late for work and I have never driven a day in my life. If you don't count Grand Theft auto of course.

This is me. I don't have a car, don't drive, and travel 26 miles a day to and from work. I take two buses, a train and a shuttle. And I make it on time. People who drive are consistently late.

Now my ex (he moved out of the house finally a few months ago) decided it was a good idea to move somewhere in Washington with no public transit nearby, because dammit he has his motorcycle! and his van! He doesn't do public transport! well guess what they both broke down (or so he thought, the bike is actually ok I guess) and he thought he was fucked. I live near a public transportation hub for a reason people.....don't get too comfortable with your vehicle it may not work some day.

Somewhere I read on facebook about a guy who walks 23 miles a day, each way, between his job and home. Christ I could never do that. Again it's lack of public transporation and his car broke down like ten years ago.

[protege]

I mean if I was a Scientologist I'd be dead ( and they have actually killed at least one person ) since they run "rehab" programs but deny psychology and psychiatry as well as related medications. Hence they did get one poor woman killed ( and were charged with practising medicine without a license and sued for wrongful death as a result. )

I'm sure everyone remembers that couch-jumping idiot Tom Cruise and his appearance on Oprah, and the various comments he's made about mental issues

But, on to mass transit. It's great, if you live in an area that actually has decent service. Not all of us are so lucky. Here, the Port Authority has run into some serious financial issues the past couple of years. They've lavished huge bonuses on the administrators...while cutting back services that they "can't afford." (I'm not even going to mention the billion-dollar "tunnel to nowhere" fiasco.)

Right now, my area--south of the city--has very little in the way of bus service. Sure, we have one or two through the neighborhood in the morning and again at night, plus the "corridor" service on the main roads, but that's about it. At one point, we had a constant parade of buses--up to 10 a day through the neighborhood. Now, nearly all of that has been cut. If I was to take mass transit to work, I'd have to take 2 buses. One to downtown, and then another to where I actually work. Even before the cutbacks...I'd still make better time driving.

Then there's the simple fact that with the car, I can go wherever I want, whenever I want. No standing out in the cold waiting for a bus that may, or may not show up. Sure, the car may mean that my expenses go up slightly, but I accept that for greater independence.

[Andara Bledin]

Then there's the simple fact that with the car, I can go wherever I want, whenever I want. No standing out in the cold waiting for a bus that may, or may not show up. Sure, the car may mean that my expenses go up slightly, but I accept that for greater independence.

I did the math on car vs no car and unless I value my time as being worth nothing at all, the car is actually cheaper than not having one.

[telecom_goddess]

ok if I had a car it would be way more expensive. Car payments, gas, insurance etc. I can't afford any of that. A bus pass is much cheaper.

No thanks I don't need that headache. Kinda the way I feel about owning a house, I don't need the headache and being responsible for everything that breaks down.

[bex1218]

If I lived in NYC or any of the other boroughs, I wouldn't need a car. But damn if I don't have one here in Sarasota, FL with inadequate public transportation.

[Josh]

"I don't Care what Other People Think."

This was not intended to be a mantra for stupid behavior or a shield for stupid actions.

To me is about embracing your individualism:
- its a realization that life is not black and white

- 'the right thing' may not be.

- refusing to fit the cookie mold society dictates when:
* you tangibly see and feel the hypocrisy as sheep are being manipulated.
* see the damaging effects it causes others.

-willingness to accept that others will have differing views.
* refuse to change to please them
* refuse to change them to please you.
* refuse to allow wolfs to transform you to a sheep
* refuse to allow the Political Correct sheep to define you.