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  • #16
    Internet Explorer isn't popular because of Microsoft evil. It's popular because it comes with every Windows PC. The majority of users think that the blue "E" is the Internet.
    *that* is the evil im talking about, its called illegal bundling and they were sued for it, and a finding of fact declares and i quote
    172. Microsoft's refusal to respect the user's choice of default browser fulfilled Brad Chase's 1995 promise to make the use of any browser other than Internet Explorer on Windows "a jolting experience." By increasing the likelihood that using Navigator on Windows 98 would have unpleasant consequences for users, Microsoft further diminished the inclination of OEMs to pre-install Navigator onto Windows. The decision to override the user's selection of non-Microsoft software as the default browser also directly disinclined Windows 98 consumers to use Navigator as their default browser, and it harmed those Windows 98 consumers who nevertheless used Navigator. In particular, Microsoft exposed those using Navigator on Windows 98 to security and privacy risks that are specific to Internet Explorer and to ActiveX controls..
    173. Microsoft's actions have inflicted collateral harm on consumers who have no interest in using a Web browser at all. If these consumers want the non-browsing features available only in Windows 98, they must content themselves with an operating system that runs more slowly than if Microsoft had not interspersed browsing-specific routines throughout various files containing routines relied upon by the operating system. More generally, Microsoft has forced Windows 98 users uninterested in browsing to carry software that, while providing them with no benefits, brings with it all the costs associated with carrying additional software on a system. These include performance degradation, increased risk of incompatibilities, and the introduction of bugs. Corporate consumers who need the hardware support and other non-browsing features not available in earlier versions of Windows, but who do not want Web browsing at all, are further burdened in that they are denied a simple and effective means of preventing employees from attempting to browse the Web.
    174. Microsoft has harmed even those consumers who desire to use Internet Explorer, and no other browser, with Windows 98. To the extent that browsing-specific routines have been commingled with operating system routines to a greater degree than is necessary to provide any consumer benefit, Microsoft has unjustifiably jeopardized the stability and security of the operating system. Specifically, it has increased the likelihood that a browser crash will cause the entire system to crash and made it easier for malicious viruses that penetrate the system via Internet Explorer to infect non-browsing parts of the system.
    With the release of IE7, which has a dramatically different interface, many ISPs got calls asking "What did you do to my Internet??"
    what the ???? does that have to do with it? these are the "the start is gone!" people that make me pity m$ right now.

    Most don't know that an alternative exists, and they don't care.
    thats why they dont care, if i gave joe user an ubuntu disk and book, he might change his mind, however that still doesnt mean joe jackass wont be pissed that the start has been replaced with applicattions.


    Sure, IE6 and older are plagued with security vulnerabilites, but IE7's security has been good so far. This is particularly true on Vista, with User Access Control and running as a non-privileged process by default. If people insist on using IE and get spyware or other crap on their computer, that's what I call the "stupidity tax"
    a.only when competition arises do they EVER improve
    b.must aggree that thats plain stupidity
    c.there are more users than those kinds! besides the ENTERPRISE consumers!

    You think it's unfair/not right that Internet Explorer is bundled with the OS and can't be uninstalled?
    it fits a certain purpose, i like konqurer integration as file manager etc. i think what is UNFAIR is m$'s motives behind integration, aka nontechnical ones.

    Konqueror: Including the current version, and planned for future release, file browsing and web browsing tied together through Konqueror
    there are technical reasons of this, centralization of functions etc
    IE: Bundled with Windows, cannot be uninstalled except through painstaking steps
    cant be done without a 3rd party tool period. breaks m$office most of the time, along with winmedplayer and every other m$ app

    Konqueror: Bundled with KDE, cannot be uninstalled without getting rid of KDE, except through even more painful steps
    installed it on kde-free system, installed kde without it, both quite easy, but it broke koffice
    I see striking similarities. You may argue that nobody forces you to use KDE. Well, nobody forces you to use Windows either.
    how do you come by that assumption? no support forr anything but windows from oems? oems strong armed into no os rather than most popular linux installed? linux incompatible m$ bastardized formats? through which of these have you come to this conclusion (the fact Linux exists ?)

    I cannot understand such a deep hatred for a web browser.
    as an os developer, the reasons grow daily.
    If you like Firefox, then great, use it. I do. I never use IE unless it's absolutely necessary for a particular website.
    ie tabs, see above
    It has never broken into my apartment and stolen my TV. It has never slapped my girlfriend. To me, it's like a bad restaurant... you eat their once, decide you don't like it, and never return.
    good for you, however having to run into a lot of technical wtf's from the wine integration project, it has DEFINITELY pushed some buttons

    Comment


    • #17
      Microsoft is evil because every major OEM *chooses* to make deals with them? You're right, there is something out there forcing these OEMs to use Windows, but it's not Microsoft; it is the consumers. People want Windows. They want it because it runs Office, because it looks pretty, because it's familiar to them. It is actually cheaper for these OEMs to sell PCs without Windows on them... but almost nobody wants a PC without Windows.

      What's next? Will Volvo be required to use Ford CD players and Honda instrument clusters? It is Microsoft's operating system, they can bundle with it whatever they bloody please.

      thats why they dont care
      No, they don't care because Internet Explorer does what they want it to and they have never wanted anything more. You have to understand, we made the jump to Linux because we wanted more. We found it. We can install thousands of programs and tweaks that Windows and Microsoft can only dream about. But most users do not want more. They want their computer to work the way they learned it. They do not want anything to change it, including themself.

      as an os developer, the reasons grow daily.
      So now you're a 16-year-old open-source developer, eh? So, what exactly does that mean? You wrote a few dozen Bash scripts and compiled your own kernel? Maybe you compiled something with winelib? And now you call yourself a developer? Or have you actually done real work for a real project?

      P.S. IE Tab causes memory leaks, and even if it didn't, it only runs on Windows.

      P.P.S. I'm trying to figure out how you manage to get around Linux, since it is case-sensitive and your shift key seems to be broken.
      I'm in ur Dieboldz deletin ur votez

      Comment


      • #18
        *Opens can*
        *shakes the worms a bit*

        I use an Apple computer. The fact that a new IE hasn't been made for Apple since 5 is enough for me to say POS. I use Safari and Firefos and sometimes Opera. All depends on my mood.

        Comment


        • #19
          It's a whole day since I last posted. Yahurd, what vulnerability did IE open up to today? You know, with your claim of vulnerabilities on a daily basis, and all that.

          Rapscallion
          Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
          Reclaiming words is fun!

          Comment


          • #20
            Another day, another vulnerability should have emerged. Which was it today?

            Rapscallion
            Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
            Reclaiming words is fun!

            Comment


            • #21
              Microsoft is evil because every major OEM *chooses* to make deals with them?
              You're right, there is something out there forcing these OEMs to use Windows, but it's not Microsoft; it is the consumers.
              http://www.dellideastorm.com/
              a)that is how it goes with a monopoly
              b)if only i could untrade secret a few documents
              c)consumers want what they think is the best, most of these consumers never tried linux period, if you think you want say a 2004 model, without knowing a 2009 model exists, i wouldnt call it a fair comparison
              People want Windows. They want it because it runs Office, because it looks pretty, because it's familiar to them.
              they want it because they dont know something else exists
              It is actually cheaper for these OEMs to sell PCs without Windows on them... but almost nobody wants a PC without Windows.
              if studies are correct, then a lot of people do.

              It is Microsoft's operating system, they can bundle with it whatever they bloody please.
              its hitlers country but he wasnt allowed to genicide whoever he bloody well pleased.
              if you buy windows you can install whatever you want on it.
              but if the only intent of a product is to leverage an existing monopoly to create a new monopoly and destroy a technology that threatens the original monopoly. then something is seriously wrong
              http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/


              No, they don't care because Internet Explorer does what they want it to and they have never wanted anything more. You have to understand, we made the jump to Linux because we wanted more. We found it. We can install thousands of programs and tweaks that Windows and Microsoft can only dream about. But most users do not want more. They want their computer to work the way they learned it. They do not want anything to change it, including themself.
              i went to linux because i wanted more, but STAYED because i didnt like what i was hearing about m$, if it was "wanting more" i would not use linux, due to the application incompatibility

              if anyone wants to go anywhere, *gasp* they;ll need to change.
              besides ubuntu is 100% more intuitive.

              ps. i have started reactorika and clone sx which aim to be absolute clones of m$ windows and apple macintosh

              Comment


              • #22
                Another day, another vulnerability should have emerged. Which was it today?
                not so recent

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                  Well, that's one from four days ago (by my time zones). Congratulations!

                  So, where are the other three?

                  Rapscallion
                  Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                  Reclaiming words is fun!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Today's report of an IE flaw? I'm eager and waiting.

                    Rapscallion
                    Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                    Reclaiming words is fun!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      well here is one
                      http://secunia.com/advisories/23014/




                      and here is a firefox one, which you may be right about
                      http://secunia.com/advisories/24205/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        http://www.dellideastorm.com/
                        a)that is how it goes with a monopoly
                        b)if only i could untrade secret a few documents
                        c)consumers want what they think is the best, most of these consumers never tried linux period, if you think you want say a 2004 model, without knowing a 2009 model exists, i wouldnt call it a fair comparison

                        they want it because they dont know something else exists
                        It's just like the iPod. The iPod is not the best music player on the market at all, in terms of features and extensibility. The accessories are overpriced, especially the OEM ones. But it still has the highest market share. Why? Because it's easy to use, and "everyone else has it." That's the same reason Windows is so popular. Even if they knew Linux existed, I seriously doubt they would like it. Just because something is technically superior does not mean it deserves, and especially does not mean that it will gain, market share.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        if studies are correct, then a lot of people do.
                        I would ask you for a source, but it would undoubtedly be a fanatic anti-"M$" or other unreliable site.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        its hitlers country but he wasnt allowed to genicide whoever he bloody well pleased.
                        The fact that you are now comparing the mass murder of millions of innocent people to a company trying to increase its market share speaks volumes about your maturity and debate skills.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        if you buy windows you can install whatever you want on it.
                        but if the only intent of a product is to leverage an existing monopoly to create a new monopoly and destroy a technology that threatens the original monopoly. then something is seriously wrong
                        http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/
                        I'd like to pose a question to you. Why does Microsoft care whether or not people use Internet Explorer? It is provided to the user absolutely free. They do not make any money from it. If everyone stopped using IE, then Microsoft would actually SAVE money by ceasing costly research and development on a program that they make NO MONEY from.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        i went to linux because i wanted more, but STAYED because i didnt like what i was hearing about m$, if it was "wanting more" i would not use linux, due to the application incompatibility
                        You just proved my point even further. The percentage of people who want more is low. The percentage of people who don't want Windows because "M$ is evil" is even lower than that.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        if anyone wants to go anywhere, *gasp* they;ll need to change.
                        Right, because Windows hasn't gotten anybody anywhere. Never mind the hundreds of thousands of businesses that use it around the globe, or the millions of home users.

                        Let me clue you in on something. This is based *gasp* on actually working in the IT field, rather than Googling "z0mg micro$haft is t3h 3V1L!!!!!one" The OEM I worked at was under contract not to sell any completely assembled machine without Windows on it. In return, they got full XP Pro licenses for $80 a pop. That's a 60% discount off the retail price. The Linux market share is around 5%. Just for the sake of argument, call it 10%. So, at that rate, they would have to pay 150% more for 90% of their machines, or 135% more overall. That doesn't make much business sense, does it?

                        You can call Microsoft evil for making money if you want, but it's like calling a human evil for breathing. Making money is what businesses do.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        besides ubuntu is 100% more intuitive.
                        I'm sure entering "sudo apt-get whatever-codec-i-need" into a shell is much more intuitive than clicking a button in Windows Media Player.

                        Originally posted by yahurd View Post
                        ps. i have started reactorika and clone sx which aim to be absolute clones of m$ windows and apple macintosh
                        Still in the planning stages? Well that's good. Mommy will be glad to know that you're making use of the crayons she got you for your birthday, though I'm sure she'll be disappointed that you've been scribbling on the wall again.

                        The WINE project is now over 10 years old, and is still in beta, even though they are only cloning the Windows API, a small portion of the overall OS. But I'm sure one 16-year-old boy can easily clone the entire thing himself.

                        Copying is the sincerest form of flattery.
                        I'm in ur Dieboldz deletin ur votez

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I have used Linux occasionally in the past...mostly at school, but I'd rather use a Windows-based system. Easier to use, IMHO. Besides, most software is written for Windows platforms...simply because of the sheer number of said platforms. Also, Windows does what I want to do--I have better things to do than mess with another OS that *might* not behave how I want it. Not saying Windows is perfect either...

                          As for IE, I'm not a fan. Nobody is being forced to use it. Don't like it? Download a copy of Firefox then, and quit bitching about it. Sorry, but I don't see why people get so upset over a freaking web browser.

                          BTW, is it just me, or did Microsoft copy the OS that Apple used on the first Macs? Not an outright copy, but the two systems look pretty smilar.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The fact that you are now comparing the mass murder of millions of innocent people to a company trying to increase its market share speaks volumes about your maturity and debate skills.
                            im not saying it was as bad as the nazis im saying, there are some lines that should be drawn

                            I'd like to pose a question to you. Why does Microsoft care whether or not people use Internet Explorer? It is provided to the user absolutely free. They do not make any money from it. If everyone stopped using IE, then Microsoft would actually SAVE money by ceasing costly research and development on a program that they make NO MONEY from.
                            i hate to sound typical, but why would they develop it in the first place?
                            because ALTHOUGH NO MONEY IS DIRECTLY MADE, IT IS STILL A TOOL FOR THEM. Microsoft must have some alternate motive?

                            Right, because Windows hasn't gotten anybody anywhere. Never mind the hundreds of thousands of businesses that use it around the globe, or the millions of home users.
                            what i meant by that is "change" is something that everyone must experience 24/7, and not fearing it will get you nowhere
                            The OEM I worked at was under contract not to sell any completely assembled machine without Windows on it.


                            In return, they got full XP Pro licenses for $80 a pop. That's a 60% discount off the retail price. The Linux market share is around 5%. Just for the sake of argument, call it 10%. So, at that rate, they would have to pay 150% more for 90% of their machines, or 135% more overall. That doesn't make much business sense, does it?
                            michael dell thinks NO!


                            You can call Microsoft evil for making money if you want, but it's like calling a human evil for breathing. Making money is what businesses do.
                            im not made they are making money, far from it, im mad at HOW they make money.

                            besides ubuntu is 100% more intuitive.
                            I'm sure entering "sudo apt-get whatever-codec-i-need" into a shell is much more intuitive than clicking a button in Windows Media Player.
                            i dont think command line is the way ubuntu rolls.


                            Still in the planning stages?
                            kinda, ive been working on reactorika for a while now
                            but all ive done on clone sx is a widget set draft

                            The WINE project is now over 10 years old, and is still in beta, even though they are only cloning the Windows API, a small portion of the overall OS.
                            reactorika is based on ubuntu lite, with integrated wine and fluxbox modified into the windows shell.
                            i should be done sooner than reactos is taking, but it will be bloated and a hog
                            I have better things to do than mess with another OS that *might* not behave how I want it. Not saying Windows is perfect either
                            seeing as how linux is a)known for openness B)known for stability and reliability, i must disagree with you, however you know windows, and it seems to fit you.
                            As for IE, I'm not a fan. Nobody is being forced to use it
                            i beg to differ
                            Originally posted by the united states of America federal government
                            153. Because of the separate demand for browsers and operating systems, firms have found it efficient to supply the products separately. A number of operating system vendors offer consumers the choice of licensing their operating systems without a browser. Others bundle a browser with their operating system products but allow OEMs, value-added resellers, and consumers either to not install it or, if the browser has been pre-installed, to uninstall it. While Microsoft no longer affords this flexibility (it is the only operating system vendor that does not), it has always marketed and distributed Internet Explorer separately from Windows in several channels. These include retail sales, service kits for ISVs, free downloads over the Internet, and bundling with other products produced both by Microsoft and by third-party ISVs. In order to compete with Navigator for browser share, as well as to satisfy corporate consumers who want their diverse PC platforms to present a common browser interface to employees, Microsoft has also created stand-alone versions of Internet Explorer that run on operating systems other than 32-bit Windows, including the Mac OS and Windows 3.x.
                            Don't like it? Download a copy of Firefox then, and quit bitching about it.
                            did you read this post? (sorry if i appear rude)
                            but what Im "bitching about" has nothing to do with the browser being of poor quality, i can think of worse browsers

                            Sorry, but I don't see why people get so upset over a freaking web browser.
                            im not getting upset over the browsing experiance(but it is reasonable to do so )im upset over the bundling, and un-removability of ie

                            BTW, is it just me, or did Microsoft copy the OS that Apple used on the first Macs? Not an outright copy, but the two systems look pretty smilar.
                            in 1995 apple filed suit against Microsoft for stealing the look and feel of a macintosh. apple won

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              You do realise that in the real world (i.e. not in computer geek-land but in the real world of business) we have more things to do than faff about over operating systems and browsers. If a browser is adequate for me to do my research, and I have an email system thaqt allows me to communicate with my clients, thats all that matters. I know perfectly well that there are technologically superior products out there - but I don't need them, and I think you'll find the vast majority of home and business users don't either.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                try telling that to jobs, the only way to make a differance in the world is by being a fanatic.

                                also you dont speak for the world when you say "i can settle"

                                and i doubt that people will want inferiority so much of the time,


                                as a lot of people seem to forget, "technologically superior"
                                means more than running faster, or having fewer bugs, it means fitting a need better, for instance, although betamax was higher quality, you could fit a movie on vhs, so, vhs fit the needs of those wanting to rent movies and the movie studios, which was larger than those who needed to tape a 30 min show,

                                say there are two browsers, browser A is faster, more secure, and more features, however, everything in the browsing experience is a string of 20 characters from changing preferences
                                1PE26type867edit%$23and
                                to typing an address
                                webgo42677urlgotype2HTTP://www.fratching.com/

                                while browser B, acts as most browsers do, click on go to go, affixing .com to unidentified urls or "im feeling lucky" from google, etc.
                                browser B is clearly "technologically superior" as browser A is such a pain in the arse to use

                                it used to be that Linux was less "technologically superior" as it was harder to use, and had less applications than windows, however thanks to the progress done on wine, and the braindeasd easy state linux distros enjoy, it is safe to say that linux is "technologically superior"


                                also, to fix what i said earlier i stayed AT FIRST out of m$ hatred but after learning the basics, could not live without it

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