Religious Fear Mongering

[Rageaholic]

So I was in the waiting room at the doctors (allergy shots) and some guy was listening to something on his smart phone (or something). It was a narm filled skit where some kid was talking about his friend who died without knowing Jesus. Apparently, the friend went to hell and was somehow able to write a letter to his friend (I didn't know hell had a mailing address). Basically, the letter writer drones on about all the horrors he's suffering in hell for never knowing Jesus and asking why his friend didn't tell him.

This of course brings up several questions, such as what kind of a sick bastard God is for sending someone to hell because their friend didn't tell them about Jesus. Or for that matter, sending anyone to such a place if God loves humanity so farking much. But knowing the type of people who would create such crap, they don't want you to think about such things. They just want to scare and guilt people, using their primal fear of death to manipulate them into compliance.

I hate all forms of fear mongering, but I especially hate the religious ones which use fear of death to grab peoples attention. It also tries to guilt people by making them feel responsible for the fate of several souls. Even though according to fundies, God is the one who sends people to the very hell he created.

But we're not supposed to think about those pesky details.

[Kheldarson]

As a point, God doesn't send us to Hell. Our choices do. If you choose to not know God during your life, then you won't know him in the afterlife either.

All that said, I hate the fear mongering as well. That's not the point of religion or God. It's about love and community.

[Rageaholic]

As a point, God doesn't send us to Hell. Our choices do. If you choose to not know God during your life, then you won't know him in the afterlife either.

All that said, I hate the fear mongering as well. That's not the point of religion or God. It's about love and community.

While I'm glad we agree that fear mongering is bull, it still sounds like God sends others to hell according to beliefs. I mean, God ultimately chooses who to damn, right? (I can't imagine anyone choosing hell themselves)

[s_stabeler]

actually, the fires is usually Purgatory, not actually Hell- Hell is usually considered to be feared because it's the state of being completely outside God's presence. Purgatory has fired, and is apparently painful, but is temporary, to get rid of the effect of minor sins, to allow a soul into heaven.

I'm not particularly religious myself, though I'm not atheist.I just personally believe that how you act is more important than what you say you believe in.

[Kheldarson]

While I'm glad we agree that fear mongering is bull, it still sounds like God sends others to hell according to beliefs. I mean, God ultimately chooses who to damn, right? (I can't imagine anyone choosing hell themselves)

No, He doesn't choose who to damn.

Put it this way. You invite someone to come over and get to know you. They refuse. And refuse every invitation you give. Now, you become rich and famous and this person is trying to prove they know you so they can be part of the "in crowd".

Are they going to be able to? And is that your fault?

It's the same with God. He invites us to get to know Him. And we have the choice to do so or not. But if we choose to stay away, He's going to respect it, even if He doesn't like it. And when we die, our ability to make different choices is done, and if that means we're still rejecting Him, then that's our choice.

[Rageaholic]

^

But if they don't choose to know me, it doesn't result in them being tossed into some (literal) hellhole.

I always thought it was strange how God needs people to believe on earth when there's little indication that God even exists, but once people die and would have their beliefs confirmed, it's too late.

[Kheldarson]

^

But if they don't choose to know me, it doesn't result in them being tossed into some (literal) hellhole.

No, but it does result in them being in a place where you aren't. That's all Hell is.

As to choosing to believe without proof, well, that's faith and free will, which is really another conversation. I was just clarifying that God doesn't choose to send anyone to Hell.

[Kaylyn]

But if they don't choose to know me, it doesn't result in them being tossed into some (literal) hellhole.

Well, that all depends on who you're asking, actually. I believe Catholics and some other denominations believe Hell is a separation from God, in which case it's an accurate analogy...never accepting a person's invitation for getting together means you're going to be "eternally separated" from their companionship. But if you're talking to someone who believes in literal hellfire, the analogy does sort of fall apart. That's more like turning down your potential friend's repeated invitations and then they come over to your house and set you on fire.

Please note I'm an atheist, I just have my head around theology pretty well (I think!) and come from a Southern Baptist background which tends to lean towards hell being a torturous punishment more than an empty void. To me, it never made sense that God would create humans, give them free will, then say "You're not using your free will to worship ME, therefore I shall punish you forever!" Like why would he even create such a place?

I just wish more faiths would focus on what faith is supposed to promote: treating others well, helping the less fortunate, etc, and being more "godly" rather than bickering over whether or not God exists and what happens when you die. If you believe we have souls, you still don't have proper evidence of what happens after death, only faith and beliefs (anecdotal evidence and stories of near-death experiences aren't proper evidence and the effects you experience in those cases are explained by neuroscience), therefore the logical thing is to worry more about making the world we are currently living in a better place for ourselves and those that come after us, rather than saying "oh I'm saved/baptized, what happens in this world doesn't matter because paradise awaits me in heaven." Sadly, many hardcore/extreme Christians don't see it this way.

In the end, I feel it doesn't matter whether God or heaven or hell is real or not, and saying some words or being baptized is merely symbolic of washing away and putting aside the old self-centered life and putting a bit more focus on serving others. That can be done without needing religious reasons or the threat of hell behind it.

[Bloodsoul]

Was anyone else reminded of a deleted scene from Dogma?

"Evil Is An Abstract."

On a somewhat related note, why does the Devil have any power or influence? How does he have any power and influence? After being banished did God not think to strip him of his powers? Has the Devil somehow escaped God's influence, or did God merely keep him intact to serve as a counter-balance… which seems, in my mind, to make the Devil into a mere puppet of God's will, forced to commit vile deeds against Himself and against humanity against his own wishes. Can the Devil not merely go, "%*#@ your apocalypse, I'm sitting at home and queuing up some Adventure Time!"?

Of course if the Devil does have free will and possess any modicum of influence, then he should have at least heard of The Bible and realizes that he's destined to lose in the end, thus making any effort to take over the world completely pointless. Hell, it was pointless from the get go — all of the damned souls on his side shouldn't mean jack against an all-powerful, all-knowing force. So, yeah, the Devil's best plan in his "war games" should be… not to play?

[Kheldarson]

According to Job, Lucifer's job has been that of, well, Devil's Advocate. He's supposed to question our relationship with God and see if he can tempt us away.

He's basically God's lawyer >.>

Plus, what good is free will if nobody tells you other options?

[Gravekeeper]

As to choosing to believe without proof, well, that's faith and free will, which is really another conversation. I was just clarifying that God doesn't choose to send anyone to Hell.

It really depends on what god and what interpretation to be bluntly honest. Which undermines this entire discussion. If you don't like the god sending people to hell, well, pick another one that doesn't. The inherent problem is that there are a large group of people fighting over one god in particular all insisting they know he exists and they know what he wants and what he wants them to do.

Now, from an academic perspective as far as Catholicism goes, "Hell" is indeed separation from God. However, this comes about from a complete rejection of God. Not from a lawl, too bad so sad you picked door #3 instead of door #2! Time's up!

Can the Devil not merely go, "%*#@ your apocalypse, I'm sitting at home and queuing up some Adventure Time!"?

Considering all that end times stuff is a delusional crack trip written down in Revelations which only barely made it in as part of the Bible after hundreds of years of bitter debate, then heck, he could very well be -.-

But again, academically, 90% of what the modern view of Satan is was completely made up in the middle ages and isn't actually anywhere in the Old or New Testament. Furthermore, Satan himself was put together as a singular concept between the writing of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. Really, Satan has gotten one hell of a screw job.

Originally, there was no singular Big Bad. "Satan" basically referred to any number of things/beings/spirits/figures that challenged people's faith. When it was later all put together to form a personification, Satan was not Ebil. He was specifically appointed by God to test the faith of men. It wasn't till later that people decided that wasn't scary enough sounding and made him a fallen angel ( which they borrowed from the Canaanites ). Then in the middle ages the Church slapped every Pagan symbol they could find together and called it the Devil to scare people away from pagan religions in Europe and towards the Church. They added all the things everyone associates with the Devil. The tail, the horns, the hooves, the pitchfork, etc.

But this is another one of those things that Southern Baptist/Protestant Fire & Brimstone types think is universal that actually has little to no basis in the history of their supposed religion nor even any consensus.

But hey, that's never stopped them before! -.-

[siead_lietrathua]

just to chime in.....
we have to remember that Abrahamic faiths were, for most of human existence, dedicated to a small portion to the middle east, surrounded by other gods. that means, from the first modern homo sapiens (200,000 years approx) to about 2000 years ago when christ was born, it was Impossible to belive in christ. beyond that, before 6000 (approx) years ago, there was no concept of Jehova.
so, depending on your branch of faith, because they were never baptised in jesus's name, or knew of the abrahamic god, everyone born before 6000 years ago was automatically sent to hell.
god creates everything, so he would have had to intentionally create all those people, for tens of thousands of years, for nothing more than hellfire. unless we're either going to throw in an arbitrary thing like "well it only started counting one the concept was born" or go into the cuckoo territory of young earth creationism.

the idea that god says something akin to "you didn't want to get to know me when i asked, so you're dooming yourself" is something i've never understood. it's not really free will when you threaten with a punishment. a kid isn't cleaning their room by free will if they'll get beaten bloody if they choose not to do it.
this explains it better than i can, because visual aids are awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

frankly though it's all kinda irrelevant. even if it was proven to me 100% that a god, specifically the Abrahamic god, existed it doesn't mean i would worship it. i could never go to my knees and worship a god that created both hell, and evil itself. (and don't start with god didn't create evil, i'll just throw a bible at you because it's in there)

edit to add:

Now, from an academic perspective as far as catholicism goes, "Hell" is indeed separation from God.

i'm not disagreeing, i just want to add that there IS hellfire in catholicism. this idea that hell is just a separation from god is a rather new thing. i've spoken to a few older people (40+) raised catholic, and for the majority of their growing up, the fire was very much a normal part of teachings. it's still in catholic doctrine books as well (though i can't remember the title of it ATM). i assume they toned down or removed fire from the 'face' of catholicism in more recent times to encourage conversion/ discourage leaving the faith.

[Gravekeeper]

the idea that god says something akin to "you didn't want to get to know me when i asked, so you're dooming yourself" is something i've never understood.

Well, it was and still is just a means of control. It was a lot more useful in scaring peasants to the Church during its teenage crusades years than it is these days though. These days its just for self righteous verbal bludgeoning of people that didn't grow up in your cult. -.-

Its the same shit ( politics, power, money, etc ) that's warped Christian texts over the centuries to begin with. Self-serving assholes in power.

i'm not disagreeing, i just want to add that there IS hellfire in catholicism. this idea that hell is just a separation from god is a rather new thing.

Its older than you would think oddly enough, but it is the Official Position(tm) of the Vatican.

But this goes back to Assholes in Power. The problem isn't the source material so much as the interpretation and rewriting of the source material. A bitterly social conservative asshole at the head of a congregation afraid of Teh Gay is going to fire and brimstone to control his flock and direct their ire at the font of all fabulous evil.

Conversely, a non-asshole in the same position will be God loves and accepts everyone, don't be a prick.

Its ultimately more of a cultural problem than one specific to the source material. That's why southern evangelical social conservative Christians can come across like complete and total fucking lunatics to northern congregations and different denominations.

Its not a matter of Jesus Says, its a matter of I don't like x but I like Jesus so Jesus must hate x too. Let me scour the Bible for one vague verse that's mistranslated and taken out of context that I can claim supports my position. While ignoring the verses that are inconvenient for me.

I was raised Catholic too ( Until their shenanigans made my mom grab me and run to the Presbyterians ) and yeah, even in more liberal areas in the 80s they were all about the guilt and punishment. Especially the guilt. ALL of the guilt. All of the time. 4 hours of solemn, unflinching Sunday morning mass about the guilt and the punishment.

I think I've mentioned this before but I shall recount my childhood with the Catholics again: When I was 5ish(?) my grandparents decided it was time for my first Confession and took me without telling my mom. I was left in a small room with an old, bitter priest who didn't believe me that I had so little to confess ( I was 5, its not like I was banging hookers and knocking off convenience stores ). So he kept grilling me and I squirmed trying to think of anything to satisfy the inquisition. But again, I was 5. My knowledge of what was good and bad was pretty limited to not cleaning my room or saying bad words.

After that my mom pulled me out of Catholic church, told my grandparents they could never take me back ( it didn't stop them when they could get away with it though ) and left me with the Presbyterians. Who gave me colouring books. ( Presbyterians are awesome ).

[Rageaholic]

the idea that god says something akin to "you didn't want to get to know me when i asked, so you're dooming yourself" is something i've never understood. it's not really free will when you threaten with a punishment. a kid isn't cleaning their room by free will if they'll get beaten bloody if they choose not to do it.
this explains it better than i can, because visual aids are awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

Exactly. This is something I'm never going to see eye to eye with Christians on. Whether you argue if hell is a punishment or just a 'choice', in the end, it's all semantics, distracting from the fact that it's an unjust fate for merely not knowing a God who doesn't communicate in the first place.

My problem with the above argument is that it assumes that someone is a fool for not 'choosing' God when, even when I went to church, the idea of knowing an entity outside of your five senses never sat well with me.

[siead_lietrathua]

Its older than you would think oddly enough, but it is the Official Position(tm) of the Vatican.

i'm not arguing it isn't the position now that it's just separation. just that it didn't used to be. the Official Positions seems to change based on what will keep butts in pews
also, whacky grandparents are whacky O_o