Hindu woman dies after being denied an abortion because "this is a Catholic country"

[KabeRinnaul]

Unless of course, you're a child rape victim pregnant with twins your body is physically incapable of carrying to term. In that case, the Catholic Church is quite happy for you to die for your "crimes".

That had nothing to do with punishing the girl, and was instead another failure of the logic I pointed out already. It still basically boils down to "You can't murder Alice to save Bob's life, even if Alice's life depends on Bob's."

Also, in her case, the abortion was performed and the girl, to my knowledge, has survived. The ridiculousness came later, when the church excommunicated everyone involved. They thought a c-section was a better option than an abortion.

[draco664]

It should be noted that the official stance by the Vatican opposes capital punishment.

Unless of course, you're a child rape victim pregnant with twins your body is physically incapable of carrying to term. In that case, the Catholic Church is quite happy for you to die for your "crimes".

[Andara Bledin]

Specifically relevant: "forgive us for what we have done and for what we have left undone." Because they amount to the same thing.

This.

Choosing not to act to save one life despite the loss of the other and letting both die as a result when you have the power, ability, and opportunity to do so is no less evil than watching someone drown when you could have pulled them to safety.

The focus on the unborn to the exclusion of the already-living is really twisted.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

Choosing not to act is an action in itself. One of the things I like about the Episcopal churches I've been to (which I mention only as a source) is the recitation during the service of the "Prayers of the People." Specifically relevant: "forgive us for what we have done and for what we have left undone." Because they amount to the same thing.

[KabeRinnaul]

The argument against applying DDE to this case is the same as always - that abortion is, regardless of circumstances, murder.

The problem arises when you combine a refusal to consider extenuating circumstances and ethics that emphasize action over consequence, particularly when the "regardless of circumstances" aspect has been taken to an absurd extreme.

The logic goes like this (again, not saying I agree, just it's there):

1. To save the mother, I'd have to murder the child.
2. To let the mother and child die, I'd be allowing events to follow their natural course, however tragic that may be.
3. It's better to allow nature to take it's unfortunate course than to try to change things by murdering a child.

[wolfie]

Some believe that the doctrine of double effect can be applied to cases like this, but the usual response is that the action to be taken - abortion - is still an evil act, and thus it doesn't qualify. And the logic present there exposes the point where the Church's ethics has problems. It basically says that if you perform an abortion, you've murdered a child to save the mother, and that's all on you. If you don't and the mother dies, then that was unfortunate, but it was a natural death and you can't fault anyone for that.

But IIRC, in this case the mother had ALREADY miscarried (i.e. probability of continuing pregnancy to term is zero), and leaving the situation alone WILL (and did) result in dead mother and dead baby.

If the hospital had performed an early delivery (for reasons you stated in quote above, doctor treats it as an extreme premature delivery rather than an induced abortion), one of the following will happen:
- Fetus is not viable, dies. Mother is already septic, can't be helped, dies. No better off (and no worse off) than with no intervention. "feces occur".
- By some miracle, NICU is able to save the baby (although it'll probably have serious health problems throughout life). Mother already septic.
- Fetus is not viable, mother lives
- NICU saves baby, mother lives

By treating this as a case of an emergency complication of pregnancy (fetus has been cut off from its "life support system", will die without intervention) rather than an induced abortion, the worst case (doctor is unable to save either the pre-term baby or the mother) is the same as the inevitable result of non-intervention. On the other hand, there is an extremely high probability that one person (most likely the mother) will be saved. Doctrine of Double Effect should apply in this case.

It's all how you look at it - just like I advise company drivers to NOT report a failed air conditioner (it's always the "dehumidifier for windshield defogger" that failed, so it's a safety-related item rather than a driver comfort item).

[TheHuckster]

favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion.

It should be noted that the official stance by the Vatican opposes capital punishment.

[KabeRinnaul]

Hokay, first things first. As I always remind everyone, I'm agnostic and in no way agree with the actions taken by the doctors here (I think they're as despicable as everyone else), but I do want to try and help explain the mindset that these people have.

So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."

The "culture of death" and "culture of life" are big things for Catholics. The culture of death is essentially one that does not accept the sanctity of life, and is willing to prevent or end a life, whereas the culture of life holds that life is sacred and should be protected in all it's forms. Because they believe that life begins at conception, that means a fetus falls under that category as well, and is exactly as deserving of protection as anyone else. Essentially, for someone who follows this belief system, abortion is infanticide.

Anyway, exactly how the Culture of Life/Death is interpreted depends on how liberal or conservative a particular Catholic is. The conservative end tends to be main-line conservative (American conservative, anyway - actually, please remember that most of my experience is with American Catholics, and things may be a bit different elsewhere) - favors capital punishment, opposes gay marriage, opposes all forms of contraception and abortion. As you get more liberal, you get those who oppose the death penalty, think the Church could stand to modernize it's views on marriage and gender equality, and would be just as horrified as anyone else at the events here - I know a local priest who actually fits on this end.

(That many Catholics who oppose birth control also oppose welfare is because social conservatism and fiscal conservatism often go hand-in-hand. Father John is the liberal exception to this one, too - he holds that the Church has a duty to help care for the children it says must be brought into the world.)

But back to abortion. The reason it's considered wrong to abort is because, like I said, they consider it infanticide. The dilemma you face when the abortion is to save the life of the mother is that in their system of ethics, an evil action taken to bring about a good result remains an evil action; essentially, the end never justifies the means. Now, there is a bit of dogma in place that makes some allowances for questionable actions, known as the Doctrine of Double Effect. It's based on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, and essentially amounts to this: If the action is morally neutral, and the intended result is good, then the action may be considered good even if it results in some evil as well. His favored example was self-defense; murder is wrong, but if you should accidentally kill an assailant in the course of defending your own life, you have not sinned.

Some believe that the doctrine of double effect can be applied to cases like this, but the usual response is that the action to be taken - abortion - is still an evil act, and thus it doesn't qualify. And the logic present there exposes the point where the Church's ethics has problems. It basically says that if you perform an abortion, you've murdered a child to save the mother, and that's all on you. If you don't and the mother dies, then that was unfortunate, but it was a natural death and you can't fault anyone for that.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

*tilts head very slowly to the side.*

So creating legislature that makes it legal to save a mother's life, so that she may continue to either try for another baby or decide to adopt instead... is the first step toward "a culture of death."

*keels over. Birdies birdies birdies.*

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[s_stabeler]

The problem isn't whether or not it's legal though. The doctors didn't say "It's illegal" to the mother when she asked for an abortion to save her life. They said This is a Catholic country. Them changing the law isn't going to change people's personal morals. The next mum is going to come around, needing an abortion to save her life, and they can still say This is a Catholic country/I'm Catholic so no abortion for you.

Unless they make it illegal to not give an abortion when the mother's life is on the line, I don't know if making abortion to save the mother's life legal will change anything.

I was answering Rapscallion. I happen to agree with you, though.

[Blue Ginger]

Yep, Northern Ireland is like the rest of Ireland in this area. Too many docs refusing on moral/religious grounds.

It's a bit hard to just jump on the ferry, or a plane, if you are in this poor woman's situation.

As much as I loved my year in Dublin, Ireland is a bit backwards in some regards.

I was even warned that it can sometimes be difficult to get the pill. I took 18 months worth with me just in case.

Hell, morning peak hour used to happen 6 days a week. It was worse on a Sunday morning than during the week.

[SongsOfDragons]

AFAIK Northern Ireland isn't much help either in that regard. The reports keep saying women have to get a ferry/plane to Britain to have it done.

[Ginger Tea]

There's this place called Northern Ireland, I'm sure people living in the Republic of Ireland have heard of it, push comes to shove, get the train.