Miss California?

[Rubystars]

I'll just drop in a quick bit... my 'where's the evidence' wasn't for homosexuality being a 'sickness', it was 'where's the proof it is genetic or evolutionary?'....

Sorry about that. I wasn't sure what you meant. Since we can see this type of behavior displayed in some of humanity's closest living relatives (especially bonobos), and we can observe it in human beings, then it makes sense that the common ancestral species to both exhibited this same behavior.

It could be genetic because a lot of times people say that they remember always feeling different from others, or that they always felt like the other gender.

Personally I believe that it's a mixture of genetic predisposition and environmental factors. It could lean more heavily one way than the other in different individuals though.

[Rubystars]

This is akin to saying that heterosexuality should be considered abnormal, and that heteros shouldn't be allowed to marry, all because some of them make out and feel each other up in public.

In any group of people, you are going to find some individuals who behave badly and make the whole group look bad. There are Christians who do obnoxious things like harass people on street corners, go door to door to evangelize to people at nine o'clock on weekend mornings, and who make it a point to berate anyone who isn't a Christian, but that doesn't mean we should make it illegal for Christians to go to church or practice their religion.

Likewise, there are feminists who do excellent jobs at given feminism a bad name, but that doesn't mean that women should be paid less than men for doing the same work.

Long story short, you can't just point out a few bad apples and use them as an excuse for treating the whole group like lesser beings.

In all fairness, most gays I've actually seen in real life didn't act like the ones at the pride parades. However I have seen some really effeminate, or let's say, flamboyant gays and butch lesbians, so it's not just a stereotype.

I don't know if I told this story on CS a while back or not. A few years ago there was this very butch woman that came up to me when I worked at a grocery store, and asked me where the Manwich was. It was hard not to laugh... but I told her. I think what made it funny was that she had a really deep voice for a woman, but she was a woman.

[Rubystars]

I have to agree with you to an extent on this, but the simple fact is that it's not hard to see past the 'outer facade' as highly publicised by the media (sinec it sells copy), and it's pretty easy to see the vast majority of normal people with a minority sexual preference.

I think it's the really weird ones that get stuck in people's minds though. The fact that they let NAMBLA into their parades also doesn't help, especially as most gays are not pedophiles.

I said before many years back that the pride rallies were now counterproductive for that very reason. Would I want heterosexuals going around in an organised parade dressed in posing pouches and grinding against each other? No. Leave it for the porn collection where it lives.

I've seen images from these parades which are absolutely disgusting, they start doing sexual things to each other right in the middle of the street. You're right that I wouldn't want to see that from heterosexuals either though.

It all seems to come down to the buttsex for you, yes? Does that affect you in any way?

I don't care if people do it if they would just not ask the public to condone it and call it normal.

A murderer kills someone. Yup - should be against the law. Could affect more members of society, so it needs legislation and action against it.

Yes.

Addictive drugs being sold? Yup - should be against the law. Addicts suffer and the people they steal from suffer, so it needs legislation and action against it.

Depends on the drug.

Two people love each other and perform consensual acts of (generally) no lasting damage. It cannot affect you, apart from the squick factor that you're displaying. Why should that be legislated against? What effect does it have on you?

I'm not saying their "butt sex" should be illegal. I just don't want some official recognition of it as if it were a marriage situation.

[Flyndaran]

Humanity is second only to bonobos in their obsession with sex.
Saying anything sexual involving humans is unnatural denies our entire history.
Honestly, saying that two chicks having sex is strange and outside of the human norm says more about the speaker's complete ignorance about sex.

[guywithashovel]

If they didn't behave so horribly in those "pride" rallies, maybe people wouldn't have such a perception of homosexuals as being disgusting people.

This is akin to saying that heterosexuality should be considered abnormal, and that heteros shouldn't be allowed to marry, all because some of them make out and feel each other up in public.

In any group of people, you are going to find some individuals who behave badly and make the whole group look bad. There are Christians who do obnoxious things like harass people on street corners, go door to door to evangelize to people at nine o'clock on weekend mornings, and who make it a point to berate anyone who isn't a Christian, but that doesn't mean we should make it illegal for Christians to go to church or practice their religion.

Likewise, there are feminists who do excellent jobs at given feminism a bad name, but that doesn't mean that women should be paid less than men for doing the same work.

Long story short, you can't just point out a few bad apples and use them as an excuse for treating the whole group like lesser beings.

[Slytovhand]

I'll just drop in a quick bit... my 'where's the evidence' wasn't for homosexuality being a 'sickness', it was 'where's the proof it is genetic or evolutionary?'....

(I love how the topic is still on being gay, not on being human...)




Nyoibo - no, not for much longer, it ain't (I haven't checked the Sun's movements for this year, so I'm guessing.. I'll celebrate tonight, at any rate).

[Nyoibo]

People in Africa often have multiple sexual partners and there is also a drug problem in the cities there like there is in the cities here. Another contributor to the spread of AIDS in Africa are the myths surrounding it, such as the idea that raping a child will cure it.

When I talk about the medical profession I was talking about modern psychologists and psychiatrists that believed that it was a sickness. Not some ancient practice like trepanning.

My god, multiple sexual partners, and they're not gay

And if you want to get into modern psychology, most stuff that psychologists learnt 50 years ago has been debunked or revised, just like trepanning, again, medicine evolves as we learn more, but what, we're supposed to ignore medical advancements because it's something some people don't like the idea of?

No, leave stem cells out of this.

[Rapscallion]

Judaism is not a sickness. Jewish people suffered real persecution and hatred towards them.

Back to the concept of homsexuality being a disease? By the way, I cherished the irony in this statement.

If they didn't behave so horribly in those "pride" rallies, maybe people wouldn't have such a perception of homosexuals as being disgusting people.

I have to agree with you to an extent on this, but the simple fact is that it's not hard to see past the 'outer facade' as highly publicised by the media (sinec it sells copy), and it's pretty easy to see the vast majority of normal people with a minority sexual preference. I said before many years back that the pride rallies were now counterproductive for that very reason. Would I want heterosexuals going around in an organised parade dressed in posing pouches and grinding against each other? No. Leave it for the porn collection where it lives.

However, you're still dealing with the perception. If you can't see past that, and if you believe the very small samples put out by the media as being representative, you lose out.

There's gay people at my workplace too, and I get along with them ok. I just don't agree with what they do. I don't think it's right to ask society to officially condone what they are doing.

Again, it's the perception.

It all seems to come down to the buttsex for you, yes? Does that affect you in any way?

A murderer kills someone. Yup - should be against the law. Could affect more members of society, so it needs legislation and action against it.

Addictive drugs being sold? Yup - should be against the law. Addicts suffer and the people they steal from suffer, so it needs legislation and action against it.

Two people love each other and perform consensual acts of (generally) no lasting damage. It cannot affect you, apart from the squick factor that you're displaying. Why should that be legislated against? What effect does it have on you?

Rapscallion

[linguist]

I think homosexuals are often portrayed in the mainstream media as being just like heterosexuals, with long-term, committed relationships. I don't think most homosexuals are like that at all, but are more prone to casual sex.

wow, someone has really bought into the bigots' propaganda. prior to the mid to late '70s, many if not most homosexuals were in long-term, commited relationships, because they had to be. most were still closeted, and the more partners one had, the more chance of being found out. the period you speak of, 20+ years ago, came about when homosexuals began coming out en masse, and finally felt free to express themselves. the rampant promiscuity of the period was in many ways a natural reaction to decades of repression they'd experienced prior. it was no worse than the free love period of the 60s and early 70s for heterosexuals. now, many if not most have returned to that older way. aids had something to do with it, but for the most part the gay community has just grown up.

If that weren't true, then diseases like AIDs wouldn't have affected their community so badly because they wouldn't have had multiple partners.

the same could be said of gonnorrhea and chlamydia during the aforementioned free love period.

They can, and this one does appear to be changing too. I don't want it to.

and here's the fear i was speaking of. i never mentioned being afraid of homosexuals, though i do find it rather telling that that's how you read it. almost a case of protesting too much. you are afraid of having your precious status quo disrupted.

The proof that homosexuality is a sickness? All I can tell you is that it's usually been treated that way in many societies and even by the medical profession until recently.

societies and a medical profession that have come to realize how wrong and barbaric they've been.

[Rubystars]

People in Africa often have multiple sexual partners and there is also a drug problem in the cities there like there is in the cities here. Another contributor to the spread of AIDS in Africa are the myths surrounding it, such as the idea that raping a child will cure it.

When I talk about the medical profession I was talking about modern psychologists and psychiatrists that believed that it was a sickness. Not some ancient practice like trepanning.

[AdminAssistant]

So you think a man should be able to flounce around in a dress and nobody should have a reaction to it? Good luck with achieving that.

Yep!

To paraphrase Eddie Izzard (transvestite comedian/actor), women can wear "men's" clothing - trousers, suits, tuxes, etc. and no one will even bat an eye. Women have total clothing rights. Why can't men? Why can't a guy walk around in a skirt and blouse with heels and makeup if he wants to? Doesn't affect my life, not one little bit.

I'm not saying people won't notice. Of course, they'll notice. People also notice girls that are half-dressed, goths with pale makeup, or a guy with a foot-tall lime green mohawk. What I'm saying is that a man walking down the street in a dress or holding hands with a male partner, or two women sharing a kiss on the street aren't inviting people to yell at them, berate them, or commit violence against them.

[Nyoibo]

I don't think most homosexuals are like that at all, but are more prone to casual sex. If that weren't true, then diseases like AIDs wouldn't have affected their community so badly because they wouldn't have had multiple partners.

I would point out the massive rates of AIDS in heterosexual people in third world countries as a counterpoint to that arguement, or the rate of increase in STD's in the youth today, or better yet, the number of single mothers or mothers with children to multiple partners, homosexuals sure as hell weren't responsible for that..

[QUOTERubystars;23256]The proof that homosexuality is a sickness? All I can tell you is that it's usually been treated that way in many societies and even by the medical profession until recently.[/QUOTE]

And for centuries Trepanning was accepted medical practice, hell, half of what people stuying medicine learn is obsolete in a couple of years, medicine advances as we learn more about the body and things are treated differently as we learn more about them> But I'm sure someone sewing you up with catgut without anasthetic or antiseptic and no follow up antibiotics is fine with you because it was accepted medical practice until maybe a century ago

Judaism is not a sickness. Jewish people suffered real persecution and hatred towards them.

As opposed to the imagined persecution and hatred that homosexuals suffer?

[Rubystars]

"Flaunting" it....that's blaming the victim. Any person, gay, straight, or otherwise, should be able to walk down the street, being themselves, without suffering any repurcussions. Simple as that. And yes, we in society have recognize that 1) gay people exist and 2) gay people should have all the same rights, privileges, and protections as any other person.

So you think a man should be able to flounce around in a dress and nobody should have a reaction to it? Good luck with achieving that.

And I don't think this has ever been really emphasized, so I will. Gay sex is a very small part of being gay. It's about who you are attracted to....and fall in LOVE with. This isn't about sex, it's about love. There are gay people who are celibate, but they're still gay.

If they were celibate then I don't have a problem with them because people can't control their feelings, but they can control their behavior.

Do you have any idea what it took just to get legal recognition of that for killed servicemen/women? Just to get a pentagram put on top of their graves? A hell of a lot!

For the record I'm with you on that one, that they should be able to have the symbols on their graves out of respect for their service to the country.

So are you going to deny metrosexuals the right to a civilly-binding union with their partner of choice because they're effeminate?

They're technically hetero, right? So um, no. I just don't find effeminate men attractive.

[Rubystars]

Back into the closet, eh?

Out of sight, out of mind might work for you, but the problem comes when you realise it's the thin end of a wedge. Humans are very tribalistic. Give them an enemy - real or imagined - and they'll work as one to demonise and act against it.

What's more attractive to someone looking for another to blame than, "They do odd stuff where we can't see it?" Same reasoning used when raising ire against the jews.

Judaism is not a sickness. Jewish people suffered real persecution and hatred towards them.

Besides, your idea of keeping it away really makes it more ... scandalous to do it, really. That makes it all the more attractive for people to go along with it - forbidden fruit principle. Counter-productive. It encourages the more flaunting acts in the pride rallies, something I wholeheartedly disagree with.

If they didn't behave so horribly in those "pride" rallies, maybe people wouldn't have such a perception of homosexuals as being disgusting people.

I work with quite a number of gay people. They have their faults and their charms, but they're the same as those of anyone else. There's no swathes of gold lame around the building in their wake, there are no fashion parades for codpieces and nothing else, and there's no stereotypically camp behaviour. If people are accepted and not thought of any the worse for their sexuality, then they are part of a functioning society. A society that seeks to hide away and repress consenting love? That's sick.

Rapscallion

There's gay people at my workplace too, and I get along with them ok. I just don't agree with what they do. I don't think it's right to ask society to officially condone what they are doing.

[Rubystars]

Actually, by 'us' you meant only a part of the society... because, quite clearly, it doesn't mean the whole of it.

But but but.. heterosexuals 'flaunt' their sexuality every single day. There are ads on TV, on billboards, on the radio, on bus-shelters etc, all with sex being flaunted.. why is that so different (other than 'it's "normal"').

That is exactly why it is different, heterosexuality is normal. However it would be nice if some people were more modest. It was pretty annoying being stuck waiting in line at Astroworld for a roller coaster ride a few years ago and seeing people tongue wrestling in line. I also think that sexuality does get exploited too much in advertisements, etc.

Having sex in public, whether hetero or homo (or any other type, really) is illegal in most places (certainly in the US) - so what's the relevant difference here??

I think homosexuals are often portrayed in the mainstream media as being just like heterosexuals, with long-term, committed relationships. I don't think most homosexuals are like that at all, but are more prone to casual sex. If that weren't true, then diseases like AIDs wouldn't have affected their community so badly because they wouldn't have had multiple partners.

Btw - mores change... I've yet to see any constructive argument against that...

They can, and this one does appear to be changing too. I don't want it to.

No, I'm not dragging, I'm just mentioning... but my question still remains - where's the proof?

The proof that homosexuality is a sickness? All I can tell you is that it's usually been treated that way in many societies and even by the medical profession until recently.

Btw- I hate rap music... and I know many other people who do as well... possibly a majority of the population (we can only hope )... does that mean I should be able to get rap music made illegal?

Yes please do.