Bridal shop refuses to sell dress to Lesbian woman, talks bad about gays

[Boozy]

So I'm wrong for refusing to make a website for that puppy mill?

You need to drop that comparison, because it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

Puppy mill owners are not a protected group under the law. You can legally refuse puppy mill owners service.

You cannot refuse service because someone is black, or Muslim, or (in some states, at least) gay.

[draggar]

You need to drop that comparison, because it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

Puppy mill owners are not a protected group under the law. You can legally refuse puppy mill owners service.

You cannot refuse service because someone is black, or Muslim, or (in some states, at least) gay.

So if a shop owner is discriminating against you do you really want to shop there and support them and their business?

Edit: Also, religion is a choice, so you can't discriminate against that choise but you can discriminate against other choices?

[Rapscallion]

Er, the only way you know they're discriminating is because you went in and tried to support their business. So, initially you do.

Rapscallion

[draggar]

Er, the only way you know they're discriminating is because you went in and tried to support their business. So, initially you do.

Rapscallion

That's because you don't know that they'll discriminate against you but when you do find out (most likely though their actions and/or comments) - do you want to shop there and support their business?

You can also know by other people telling you. I don't think anyone here has gone to the bridal shop but we all know they discriminate against homosexal people who want to get married.

[Evandril]

The problem is...If I was to open a store in, say, little rock arkansas, and let it be known that I only allowed certain skin colors to shop there...Once word got out, I'd have a ton of buisness, because of the people who would agree with that stance, and support me. *Hopefully* there are enough people who are upset that the bridal store is being a bigoted ass to offset the extra buisness she gets for 'standing up for what's right!', but I'd not put money on it *shrugs*

I VERY much dislike laws of that sort...but, for now at least, they are still needed...IMO, at least

[AdminAssistant]

Evandril, that may be true in more rural areas in Arkansas, smaller towns like Jonesboro or Fayetteville, or out in the far-off affluent suburbs, but not in Little Rock itself.

ETA: Sorry, I realize that it's beside the point, but I always have to address misconceptions when it comes to my home state.

[Andara Bledin]

So I'm wrong for refusing to make a website for that puppy mill?

There is a difference between what is an isn't a protected class. Puppy mills are not protected. White supremacists (usually) are not protected. People in loud Hawaiian shirts are not protected.

You have the right to refuse service for any reason that has not been deemed a protected status; those which are given protected status have been deemed to be things that the protected person cannot change and that a large percentage of the general population is too apathetic to protect on their own.

Getting married, though, is a choice.

To get married is a choice. But she's not discriminating against people getting married, so this is just another straw man.

I'm Pagan - if a (non accomidation / critical) store refuses to servce me because of a pentagram I wear - fine. I don't want to support them and I'll let my Pagan friends know about it and you sure as hell will see my review on a site like Yelp letting people know that I was refused because I am Pagan.

If your area has anti-discrimination laws, they will include the basis of religion, and you should report them for the violation.

If you don't, then you are part of the problem.

^-.-^

[fireheart17]

Regarding draggar's argument: if you refused to do a page for a puppy mill, that's no problem. If you were asked to do a page by the KKK and refused, you can argue your point in court. At that point, you could also possibly argue that by creating a page, you are encouraging others to commit hate crime (or something like that)

Evandril, sure you'd have A business, but it would only work if that view was the majority view. In the case of say, a bridal dress, its not exactly something you buy every day of the week.

If say, you made it clear on your advertising that you catered for LGBT couples as well as heterosexual couples, chances are, you would get business from not only LGBT couples, but also from heterosexual couples who don't care about gay marriage/commitment ceremonies, heterosexual folks who SUPPORT it and so on.

[draggar]

There is a difference between what is an isn't a protected class. Puppy mills are not protected. White supremacists (usually) are not protected. People in loud Hawaiian shirts are not protected.

You have the right to refuse service for any reason that has not been deemed a protected status; those which are given protected status have been deemed to be things that the protected person cannot change and that a large percentage of the general population is too apathetic to protect on their own.

Fine. Let's take this another step.

We have resorts here in south Florida that I am NOT allowed to go into because they cater to gay men and I am a straight man. You can have "gay" bars but you can't have "straight" bars. So why is it OK to discriminate against a straight man?

There are "black only" clubs - you see jack about this yet if I opened up a "white only" you can be damn sure that I will have every civil rights group protesting me.

Bars and clubs can offer "ladies night" and offer discounted services to women but not to men.

Some shops and restaurants in Miami will only serve you if you are Latin American. I've seen stores in Chinatown (Boston) that wouldn't sell to me because I wasn't Asian while others will treat their Aian clients better.

Being a straight white male if I complain about any of these people will tell me to stop my whining. So why is it discrimination is so taboo when it goes one way but perfectly acceptable when it goes the other way?

If your area has anti-discrimination laws, they will include the basis of religion, and you should report them for the violation.

If you don't, then you are part of the problem.

Oh, yes, why don't I take time off from work (especially since I am out of vacation time) so I can take them to court (I"m sure the state wilc all me in as a witness) so the state can fine an establishment (and they keep the $$$) that I am sure I'll never want to visit again. What, I get to walk around thinking "I showed them" while they think "You proved my point".

Regarding draggar's argument: if you refused to do a page for a puppy mill, that's no problem. If you were asked to do a page by the KKK and refused, you can argue your point in court. At that point, you could also possibly argue that by creating a page, you are encouraging others to commit hate crime (or something like that)

And yet some would go as far as to say it is a religion so now I have to make the site for them because if I refused it is bcause of their "religion" - if the site doesn't promote hate crime then I have no standing.

[Andara Bledin]

Private clubs get to have different rules. Apples to Oranges as far as the law is concerned.

And just because you've seen racism gone unchecked (and just what, pray tell, did you do about it?) doesn't make it legal.

Oh, yes, why don't I take time off from work (especially since I am out of vacation time) so I can take them to court...

You can file a complaint and they can verify the truth of it without your help. It's just like any other sting operation.

And yet some would go as far as to say it is a religion so now I have to make the site for them...

Religion has special rules that go both ways. It's far too complicated to drag into a story about something as black and white as a shop refusing service for reasons of sexual orientation.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

Evandril, that may be true in more rural areas in Arkansas, smaller towns like Jonesboro or Fayetteville, or out in the far-off affluent suburbs, but not in Little Rock itself.

ETA: Sorry, I realize that it's beside the point, but I always have to address misconceptions when it comes to my home state.

Then it's changed since I was there, good Though I was stationed inside fayetteville, and only really made it to north little rock, so I might have missed the more sane areas Been 10+ years since I was there, and I have no desire to return :P

Unfortunatly, the 'anti-gay marriage' stance is fairly popular in some areas (See the fact the DOMA passed, and some of the leaders for the presidential race), so I don't see it hurting her buisness as much as I'd prefer. *shrugs* I hope I'm wrong, but not putting money on it

[draggar]

Private clubs get to have different rules. Apples to Oranges as far as the law is concerned.

And just because you've seen racism gone unchecked (and just what, pray tell, did you do about it?) doesn't make it legal.

So some people can discriminate against some people yet other people can't discriminate against others?

When they have signs on the outside that say "NO WHITES" or "GAYS ONLY" they're not keeping it a secret. How come no one wants to enforce it? I'm not the police and I have much better things to dow with my time than go complain about everything and much better places to spend my money.

You can file a complaint and they can verify the truth of it without your help. It's just like any other sting operation.

Again, what will it solve? The shop owner will be forced to serve people they're prejudice against. Whoop-dee doo. They'll just find other reasons not to serve them or do a crappy job towards those people. Complaining will also make the prejudice person think that they are right in their thoughts and may even feed more into their prejudice.

The best way to fight a prejudice business is to take your money and business where you are accepted and where they appreciate your business.

Religion has special rules that go both ways. It's far too complicated to drag into a story about something as black and white as a shop refusing service for reasons of sexual orientation.

Are people starting to see the flaws in discrimination laws? Some people can't disctiminate against some other people for some reasons. But other people can discriminate against other people for other reasons.

It's really sad that people feel we need these "anti-discrimination" laws - especially when they're highly discriminatory.

[Nyoibo]

Private clubs get to have different rules. Apples to Oranges as far as the law is concerned.

Only to a certain extent, I'll dig it up later when I've had some sleep, but I found the laws and definitions pertaining to such.

extent

We have resorts here in south Florida that I am NOT allowed to go into because they cater to gay men and I am a straight man. You can have "gay" bars but you can't have "straight" bars. So why is it OK to discriminate against a straight man?

There are "black only" clubs - you see jack about this yet if I opened up a "white only" you can be damn sure that I will have every civil rights group protesting me.

Bars and clubs can offer "ladies night" and offer discounted services to women but not to men.

You can go into them, but lets face it, they're not catering to you, so you may not enjoy it, also pretty much by defauly most bars are "straight" bars.

Black only clubs and similar are that by reputation and who the bouncers let in, but there's nothing that specifically states "black only" otherwise they would be illegal, it's exploiting a loophole basically.

As to ladies nights, any business can offer a discount to any group they choose, when it's not ladies night they are offering you the exact same services, there are places that offer guys nights some times, it's just like you can't get a military discount or a seniors discount, you are being offered the exact same service at the RRP, just at times some people are eligable for a discount.

[Andara Bledin]

It's really sad that people feel we need these "anti-discrimination" laws - especially when they're highly discriminatory.

Oh, noes. Far be it that we force companies that do business with the general public to not abuse an unpopular minority group who can't change what they are.

^-.-^

[draggar]

You can go into them, but lets face it, they're not catering to you, so you may not enjoy it, also pretty much by defauly most bars are "straight" bars.

Black only clubs and similar are that by reputation and who the bouncers let in, but there's nothing that specifically states "black only" otherwise they would be illegal, it's exploiting a loophole basically.

I am not allowed in the resorts at all, I've been told that when I went there to pick up a friend (more than one resort, too). I couldn't even go into the lobby, I had to wait outside in the parking lot.

As for "gay" vs. "straight" bars - "straight" bars cater to everyone and none will say "we're a straigt bar". "Gay" bars will admit that they are a gay bar and clearly cater to that demographic.

I've seen signs and I wish I took pictures.

Oh, noes. Far be it that we force companies that do business with the general public to not abuse an unpopular minority group who can't change what they are.

Yet it is OK for the minority to "abuse" the majority?