Racial insinuation?

[Zyanya]

Okay.

You even confessed when you told the story of you harassing someone about their supposed racism until they got mad, then laugh because you offended them.

Then you acted like saying someone was black was the equivalent of calling someone a 'gimp'.


You got offended at my insinuation, but didn't hesitate to make insinuations first, nor to harass someone until they had to get mad at you and call their anger 'ironic'.

Your basic premise is that if I notice skin, it must be because of inherent racism, and have nothing to do with the skin being the largest and most visible organ in the body.

Thus you self-righteously assume I must be racist, even if subconsciously.



And yet you get angry when the same insinuation is directed at you, with more valid reasoning behind it.


Knock off the hypocrisy. Your race card is no good here.

While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

Ironically enough, I had this type of conversation with an Indian girl in college (my GF's roomate). A guy had stopped by and she took a message and wrote it down (this happened a lot). My GF and I returned and got the message. Next time I saw her (I was feeling in a mentally frisky mood) and asked her why she pointed out that he was black? She got a confused look on her face and asked me what I meant. Well, yesterday when "felix" stopped by (not the black guy) you didn't mention that a white guy stopped by. Why did you feel the need to point out that "pablo" (black guy) was black but didn't mention that "felix" was white? She told me I was being silly and I pressed her why? She ironically got mad at me and wanted to drop the subject, because I was offending her.

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

After all "it is a good descriptor in most cases".

Just because there is no malicious intent on her part, doesn't mean it's not wrong. I am sure you would say the same about blacks calling each other "nigger". They may not have malicious intent, but it's still wrong.

[ebonyknight]

Nor do you know anything about me, or my friend.

Yet you feel content to call us racist because we noticed something.

I turn it around, and point out the racism in what you noticed.

Sure doesn't feel good now, does it? Kind of makes you angry. Puts you on the defensive a bit? Sure seems like an attack on your nature, like I'm implying you are a bad person for happening to notice something. Of course, since it is untrue, it's extremely insulting and rude to imply.


So why don't you knock off the hypocrisy?

Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????

[DesignFox]

But why should we have to be "color-blind?"

Why is it racist for society to notice someone's skin color? It's a characteristic of the person, afterall.

Seriously. At the store I work at, all of us were white except for one guy. So, it was easiest for customers to say they spoke to the "black guy" than trying to pick out which of the other two guys that work there they spoke to. It was his most identifying feature compared to the other two. Not a racist slam against him.

For awhile, I was the only chick in the store. So, customers would say they spoke to "the girl that works here." Well, my being the only girl in the store, that was the best way for them to identify me.

Now we only have one guy. So, if a customer forgets his name, they ask for "the guy I talked to" because he's the ONLY one.

I think if someone is in the minority of a group either because of their race or gender, it's not racist or sexist to point them out that way. It's just the easiest way to describe them without getting into specifics- which a lot of people may not remember off the top of their heads.

If I were in a room full of black people, I'd half expect people to point me out by saying "the white girl." I'd be the ONLY one, wouldn't that be the easiest way to find me?

I don't see anything wrong with this.

I think everyone was upset with ediblehat because she/he? used the word "cranky" in conjuction with "Indian" which somehow automatically implies that he was cranky because he was Indian.

I don't see it that way...but apparently others do. I just avoid using race descriptors in my stories to keep from upsetting the sensitive people.

I think it's natural for people to use descriptors for types of people that are different from their "norm."

I tend to picture everyone as white unless told otherwise simply because I'm white, I've grown up with white people, went to school with white people, lived with white people. It's just the way it is. Although equally, I have a different picture in my head for "white trash" than I do for "normal" white people.

I'm sure if I were Mexican, I'd picture everyone with those traits and only see differently if the person had been described to me.

I don't think it's racist. I don't think it's bad. It's just the way we're wired. I don't picture people in fifty shades of tan, brown, black, red and yellow...I picture most people to look like me unless descriptions show me otherwise.

I think for most of what we discuss on CS, the person's race doesn't really matter to the story; unless the customer was being sucky by pulling race into the scenario.

So, it probably isn't necessary to paint so clear a picture of the person in question. I can see how it gets misinterpreted fairly quickly. But I think it's equally wrong to always assume that the person is picking on someone's race or gender.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and unless they come right out with a slur, I don't paint them with the racist brush.

[Zyanya]

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

The epidermis is the single largest organ in the body.

The average woman's skin makes up about 1/12 of her body weight and covers approximately 22 square feet.


Why are you so shocked and insulted that it is a noticeable feature on your body?

[Zyanya]

As someone once correctly pointed out, you don't know anything about me.

Nor do you know anything about me, or my friend.

Yet you feel content to call us racist because we noticed something.

I turn it around, and point out the racism in what you noticed.

Sure doesn't feel good now, does it? Kind of makes you angry. Puts you on the defensive a bit? Sure seems like an attack on your nature, like I'm implying you are a bad person for happening to notice something. Of course, since it is untrue, it's extremely insulting and rude to imply.


So why don't you knock off the hypocrisy?

Sometimes the best way to describe a rose is to call it a rose, and it's in no way degrading to the rose.

No system can accurately examine itself. Because we are products of our own society, its hard for us to determine the exact extent of its racism. But the fact that we see differences in skin tone before that of differences in say, height or hair colour, says a lot about the issue.

The skin is the single largest organ in the body. Why are you shocked that it's noticeable and thus may appear in a brief description of a person?

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

Yes, that is exactly what they are implying, though they are trying to backtrack on it.

[Boozy]

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

No, I am not saying that you personally are racist.

You and I are products of an inherently racist society. This society recognizes race as an important distinguishing feature between people. Even if you and I disagree, we still have to live in this society, which means we are forced to notice racial differences.

No system can accurately examine itself. Because we are products of our own society, its hard for us to determine the exact extent of its racism. But the fact that we see differences in skin tone before that of differences in say, height or hair colour, says a lot about the issue.

[ebonyknight]

Actually, the fact that you think the descriptor 'white' is the equivalent of the descriptor 'fat chick' says a lot more about you than it does about the person who originally used the term 'white'.

As someone once correctly pointed out, you don't know anything about me.

I'd like to add that I think in general, when describing a person, place, or thing, we tend to give the most basic description first, followed by more details if necesary. "Let's go to a restaurant. McDonald's. The one on N. Parkway."

And what makes race the "most basic description" as opposed to hair color, weight, etc? If we strive for a color-blind society (that's what I hear all the time), then why continue to use labels that prevent that?

I doubt she had any racist intent, and personally it would have pissed me off if someone had implied such by questioning me like you did her.

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

I'm not a racist but I'm also not blind. Differences in race are generally pretty distinguishing characteristics, and describe a person quite definitively. Seeing these differences does not imply that thay are bad, or that the person underneath is bad. Aren't we supposed to cherish our differences anyway?

*sigh*

Try re-reading my posts.

I will try again for the third time.

While I don't believe it is indicative of "I am a racist", it is a symptom of a racist society.

I don't understand why that is such a hard concept. Several people have implied that I believe them to be racist because they use racial descriptors, when I have clearly said several times that, that is not the case.

I find it quite funny the first reaction is "I am not racist", to any issue involving race.

[jayel]

No one is saying that. I think you need to re-read ebonyknight's original post.

Actually, it sounds like what you were saying. Had nothing to do with ebonyknight's post.

In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin.

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

[blas87]

Seems to me white people are also described in great detail........although no one writes a story like "So there was this obnoxious caucasian man in the store tonight", but they'll write stuff like "This pasty white guy" or "This fat white guy"

[Boozy]

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

No one is saying that. I think you need to re-read ebonyknight's original post.

[jayel]

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

I'm not a racist but I'm also not blind. Differences in race are generally pretty distinguishing characteristics, and describe a person quite definitively. Seeing these differences does not imply that thay are bad, or that the person underneath is bad. Aren't we supposed to cherish our differences anyway?

I'd like to add that I think in general, when describing a person, place, or thing, we tend to give the most basic description first, followed by more details if necesary. "Let's go to a restaurant. McDonald's. The one on N. Parkway."

[MystyGlyttyr]

I find it interesting that you're commenting on this one, Mysty. A while ago, just after we introduced new member moderation, we had a couple of neo-nazis try to stir up crap on the board. A prompt banning followed, and Nightangel (if memory serves) used Google on their names. We found a racist message board dedicated to white supremacy, and they quoted one of your posts in graceless terms.

I'm not giving you the URL. I know you'll want it, but it's unpleasant stuff. There are minds you cannot change, no matter what you say or do.

Heh, don't worry about it, Raps. If it is who I think it is, they were pissed at me long before I ever came to CS.com...and I've probably heard much worse from much better. I take people like that hating me as a compliment, as I would never want to be appreciated by men with such tiny minds and tiny...other things.

I'm not against the mods in this case, despite how my post sounds. I know you guys are just doing your jobs. I just do wish this didn't HAVE to be a part of your job.

[Boozy]

Sure, you could describe the 'white' girl as the 'blond' girl, or the 'blue eyed' girl, but seriously, why bother? The fact that she is white is the most obvious and notable difference between her and her classmates

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

[Rapscallion]

I find it interesting that you're commenting on this one, Mysty. A while ago, just after we introduced new member moderation, we had a couple of neo-nazis try to stir up crap on the board. A prompt banning followed, and Nightangel (if memory serves) used Google on their names. We found a racist message board dedicated to white supremacy, and they quoted one of your posts in graceless terms.

I'm not giving you the URL. I know you'll want it, but it's unpleasant stuff. There are minds you cannot change, no matter what you say or do.

There are complaints that we're overly zealous and politically correct on CS.com. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. We've seen true racism, though, and one of the people trying to stir it up had three hundred posts. We looked back and their posts had certain little signs and attitudes.

We're careful, but we're careful for a reason.

Rapscallion

[MystyGlyttyr]

I never really thought of references to race in a story as anything other than an adjective, myself. White girl = girl who's skin is white, black guy = guy who's skin is black. Okay. Got it. Next paragraph.

To me, acknowledging someone's race isn't the same as making a big deal out of their race. It's just one more characteristic, on the same list as "tall" or "annoying" or "gang-banger" or what-have-you. All it does for me is form a more complete mental image. And, and this is my opinion, assuming that just because someone makes note of a race automatically = racist is just kind of stupid. I mean, it's a very rare person who is well and truly "colorblind". I mean, if you see someone, it's one of or THE first thing you might notice about them. But there's a big difference between just noticing "this person is ______" and assuming "Because this person is ______, then they _____."

Maybe being faceblind as it turns out I am makes it different, though. If I try to just go by a person's face, I'll mix up black, white, male, female, etc. There were people I went to school with for YEARS who I could never tell apart just by their faces, I had to use in one case, their haircuts, and in another case, their eye colors, even though apparently neither pair looked anything alike to anyone else. I HAVE to take stock of everything about them, and if it's a couple of females with similar clothes and hairstyles and heights and weights and whatever else, the only thing I have left to use is skin tone.

(And if THAT'S the same...well, then I'm fucked, as a pair of black women with identical hair cuts and wearing the same dark pink business suits found out about a month ago here at the paper. On the other hand, my mixing up their business had no negative effects on either AND introduced them to one another and has made them become good friends...silver lining, LOL.)