Racial insinuation?

[Zyanya]

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

All people stereotype. As an example, we expect when we see a bipedal hairless ape-being walking down the street in a t-shirt and jeans that it is a human being.

Stereotype is really only a problem when it is used negatively.

As a further example, I expect when I see someone with an 'Order of the Stick' t-shirt on, they are a fan of gaming. I am stereotyping them based on their looks and I could easily be wrong, perhaps they are just a fan of stick figures. But since there is nothing negative or at all mean spirited about my assumption and it is reasonably based, where is the inherent and automatic insult?

The correct answer is that while there may be an insult, it is not right to assume (there is that word again) that it is automatically an insult and that the person making the statement is an ignorant racist.

That is just you making the same mistake you are upset at them making.

I would have thought that -isms are based on the actions of a person, not their intent (not to say a person can't have racist thoughts..)

I believe I illustrated why this is incorrect with my holding open the door example.

[AFPheonix]

I think there are prejudices that we all have that are positive for our well being. For example, people tend to have the prejudice that all people who drive while talking on cell phones are dangerous. That to me is a helpful prejudice because it makes people be more aware of the actions of people around them, and can prevent traffic accidents.

While I agree that prejudice and racism are slightly different, they are definitely related, and types of prejudices lead to and justify racism in some people's minds.

[Slytovhand]

OK, but we can all agree that prejudice in many forms can be bad at least?

oh - I dunno... I'm thinking I might just head us off on some completely useless argument and take us nowhere for a bit... and then get a bit narky cos no-one understands what I'm getting at. How does that sound??

Ok.. does 'prejudice' have a good side? I mean, it is still making an unwarranted judgement based on something fairly irrelevant (or have I mis-defined it?)


Zyanya... as for the 'intent' behind the action, while I agree in one sense to what you've said, the problem with it is that people aren't generally telepathic or empathic... so the intent gets somewhat lost in translation. I would have thought that -isms are based on the actions of a person, not their intent (not to say a person can't have racist thoughts..)

But still sort of getting OP... sort of......


Slyt

[DesignFox]

I agree that prejudices can be bad, Phoenix. I was just pointing out that there is a difference.

[AFPheonix]

OK, but we can all agree that prejudice in many forms can be bad at least?

Sometimes there's good prejudice, but the case I've been arguing is unhelpful.

[DesignFox]

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

Actually, making an assumption about someone based on their skin color would be prejudiced.

Harboring a hatred or negative opinion of someone based on that observation would be racist.

I don't know how to pull them in here, but I checked definitions via dictionary.com to make sure it wasn't pure interpretation on my part. But there is a subtle difference in definition.

Prejudiced people can be racist...but you can also harbor prejudices without being a racist.

[AFPheonix]

Funny, seems I said what I did several pages ago. There is a reason I kept asking WHY is the action racist. Funny how you kept ignoring that question. Remember that little bit I said about hypocrisy? Ah well, go ahead and backtrack if you like. My point was proved several pages ago, I'm glad you finally decided to get it.

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

[Greenday]

Okay, in the end, you guys agree. That's great. Your points are made.

*douses everyone in confetti*

[the_std]

Okay, in the end, you guys agree. That's great. Your points are made.

[Zyanya]

Oh look, we're not so far off after all. Seriously, you took three pages of straight arguing when you didn't have to, simply because you didn't really bother reading what I had to say.

Funny, seems I said what I did several pages ago. There is a reason I kept asking WHY is the action racist. Funny how you kept ignoring that question. Remember that little bit I said about hypocrisy? Ah well, go ahead and backtrack if you like. My point was proved several pages ago, I'm glad you finally decided to get it.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not necessarily saying it's racist every time either. I'm saying that the reasons behind why you picked that particular person to ask can be. If Ariana's friend was the only Asian face in a sea of white and someone came up and asked him, wouldn't that seem a little off to you?

You still don't get it, do you?

The intent of the action matters.

Oh look, we're not so far off after all. Seriously, you took three pages of straight arguing when you didn't have to, simply because you didn't really bother reading what I had to say.

[Zyanya]

You still don't get it, do you?

You still don't get it, do you?

The intent of the action matters.


Lets use another example. (in this example, let us assume I am a male)

If I hold open the door for you because you are right behind me and I am a nice person, I am being nice.

If I hold open the door for you because you are a girl and everyone knows girls are frail and need to be pampered, I am being sexist.

See the difference yet?

Now, if I hold open the door for you because you are right behind me and I am a nice person, and then you go ballistic and shout how dare I assume you are a frail little girl who needs the door held open for her, then you would be the sexist.

Now do you get it?

Asking a Chinese person where a Chinese restaurant is COULD be a racist action. But it isn't necessarily a racist action and unless you have another reason to believe it is (the person sneered when he said it, walked through a crowd of white people to ask the question, included some sort of racist monologue when asking the question, etc....) you should not automatically assume the question is racist because frankly, that says something about you. Namely, if you assume all white people are racist, then odds are they will undertake actions you can interpret as racism, such as oh, asking to see your ID when you write a check or telling you the restaurant is currently out of an ingredient in the dish you ordered.

There is no inherent racism involved in wondering if a Chinese person knows something about Chinese food, anymore than there is job-ism involved in wondering if that person in nursing scrubs knows where a pharmacy is located.

[Greenday]

It totally could, and it's quite possible. I just think the majority of the time it's not racist at all.

The only problem is some people are just complete tools and think they are funny by purposely doing it.

[AFPheonix]

If the person was right next to him at the time, no. But if the person had to move through a huge crowd just to ask him, then yea, I'd wonder what was up with that.

It just seems like there's been a, "Any mention of race in any context is racist" sort of view in this thread. I hadn't seen any of that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't until that last reply, which is what Zyanya seems to be going on.

I've never disagreed with that basic premise either. This is probably the 5th or 6th time I've said that now. Here's my initial post:

I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all.

At this point in the thread, I'm simply making the case (nuanced as it may be) that racism can still exist even in small innocuous ways. That's it. I have a fairly nuanced opinion on this.

[Rapscallion]

Why is there no reaction to these descriptors, yet members get questioned if they mention the ethnicity of the other person/people involved?

That's fairly easy to explain.

Those other descriptors generally don't cause a problem in society or on CS. There are a few things that do cause genuine offence - politics, religion, race, tipping, and PETA to name but a few. We've had genuinely racist people on the board before, and looking back at their posts shows that they were dropping hints about their preferences in subtle ways - assumedly to try and draw others of potentially similar mindset out of the woodwork. We have to draw a line somewhere, and that's the main reason we drew the line there.

We did relax the rules a while ago about mentioning race. We decided to trial the idea of allowing racial mentions if it adds description to the scene being portrayed. It's under review, and it would be far easier for us to just scrap it as a rule, since it involves so many grey areas where we have to think about whether it added life to the scene or was possibly offensive.

Rapscallion