Racial insinuation?

[Pedersen]

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

I'll speak up a bit. I'm going to speak in the most general terms possible, and am probably going to offend some of the people here. Oh well.

I've seen a few people on this thread who seem to debate the point as if to prove that the majority are all racist, and minorities never are.

I've seen others who provide valid insight into why minorities of any sort feel disadvantaged.

The second group actually made me think that maybe there was something more, something valid. Made me start to be willing to think that maybe, without even intending for it to happen, some form of privilege was being granted to me without my asking for it or seeking it out in any way.

The first group has more or less closed my mind on the subject, and has made me feel like I did before. I'm not doing anything to hold minorities back, and if they feel I am, then that's their problem, not mine. Go whine on somebody else's shoulder.

That first group also makes me feel under attack, as if I have to defend every action I take, every comment I make. I feel unable to discuss what I perceive, because my viewpoint is made to be invalid.

The first group has also made statements which are very similar to "You're white, you're male, you can't possibly experience discrimination/prejudice of any sort in your entire life." Even when I can provide counter examples to show it, the response amounts to "Oh well. You still have it better than me, which makes your experiences insignificant."

I can understand why this thread has gone the way it has. If I were an active participant, I think I'd be responding in a defensive manner, and lashing out at my perceived attackers.

To the people in the second group, please, post more.

To the people in the first group, please examine not just your message, but also how you convey your message. You are alienating people who would support your cause because of the way you convey your message.

As to who is in which group, I'm not naming names. I'm sure I've already offended rather a few people.

[Zyanya]

Zyanya, I happen to agree with you on a lot of the points being discussed here. I merely wished to point out that people are a lot more likely to discuss their opinions and not put on their defensive face if everyone else in the debate does, too.

Then perhaps they should stop implying people are racist and thus putting them on the defensive then?

As I said earlier, hypocrisy is an ugly trait, and if they are offended by what I am saying, perhaps they should look at the comments of theirs that I was responding to.

Because all I am doing is turning their own words and implications back on them.

[the_std]

Zyanya, I happen to agree with you on a lot of the points being discussed here. I merely wished to point out that people are a lot more likely to discuss their opinions and not put on their defensive face if everyone else in the debate does, too.

[Zyanya]

Zyanya, these personal attacks against members on this board are very rude and don't have much to do with the actual matter being discussed here. I'm sure we can all discuss racial insinuation without resulting in personal attacks against other members.

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

At this point, I could take exception to the fact that you've used the term 'bigger man'. I could point out that it's inherently sexist, and size-est. After all, I am female, and the statement would seem to state that only males can be superior. And of course, I'm short, so the statement could also be an insult to my height by saying that because I am short, I will never be as good as someone taller than I am.

But that would be ridiculous on my part. That's not what you meant by the phrase, and that's not the spirit of your post. It would be simple nit-picking on my part, an attempt to be a drama queen, an attempt to twist the argument, an attempt to make you look like the bad guy, an attempt to put myself on a self-righteous pedestal, a bit of slander towards you by suggesting you persecute short females, and in essence, a completely stupid way for me to behave.



So instead, I am just going to hope you get the point of the above rant and realize why I am getting fed up with the implications that I am a racist for happening to be aware of the ethnic backgrounds of my friends, and hope that you acknowledge that every instance of my supposed rudeness came about in response to someone making a slanderous implication as to my personality. And that yes, they had something to do with the argument at hand and were pertinent to the issue, as demonstrated in my above rant. Calling hypocrisy what it is is very pertinent to the issue, as is pointing out drama queen behavior as the real basis for the supposed insult.

[the_std]

Zyanya, these personal attacks against members on this board are very rude and don't have much to do with the actual matter being discussed here. I'm sure we can all discuss racial insinuation without resulting in personal attacks against other members.

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

[Zyanya]

... Where the heck did that scenario come from? It doesn't have much of anything to do with the debate that's going on. And that is not what AFP said.

Yes, it is. He said that mistaking a Pakistani for an Indian is insulting. I demonstrated that in many cases, no, it is not.

The problem is that those of you talking about 'well, it's racist' are incorrectly and insultingly assuming any racial mix up is an event like saying 'all those India people are horrible drivers' when referencing a man from Pakistan. Of course that is insulting.

But what you are lumping in with that behavior is the non-racial and non-insulting behavior of 'well, I think Joe is from India and I think they hold cows sacred and don't eat beef, so we should make sure there is food available at the pot-luck that he can eat', when Joe is from Pakistan.

No racist behavior there. In fact, it's an attempt to be courteous, tolerant, and just plain nice. You however, are considering it the same as the first scenario, and that's insulting to both sides.

As to where that scenario came from, it came from work last week. A co-worker knew another co-worker was from a different ethnic background and mistakenly thought it was Pakistan. He was trying to hurry up and place an order and didn't have time to go track her down. So, knowing a (very) little bit about the culture of Pakistan, my co-worker made sure he ordered a pizza with no beef or pork on it (actually, he ordered both a plain cheese and a vegetarian). The other co-worker was actually from India, and was pleased at the thoughtfulness, NOT insulted at the mistake in country.


To use another local scenario, there was a high school team whose mascot was named for the local tribe. A group of busy-bodies decided the mascot was an insult to the tribe and campaigned, getting it changed. Shortly afterwards, someone thought to interview the tribe. Turns out, the tribe was upset that the name had been changed, they were quite proud of the team and honored at the name, and had been among the teams largest contributors during fund-raising time. They were insulted that the busy-bodies had thought they were too stupid to speak up for themselves and thought they knew best instead of just asking.


Me, I'm of Ukrainian heritage. The Ukraine and Russia haven't gotten along in years. If you mistakenly call my last name a Russian name, I don't give a rat's arse, cause I think of myself as an American.

It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

Yet another example of the hypocrisy in this thread. Content to imply everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, but how dare anyone imply anything about you!

Take a look in the damn mirror.

How many people were just trying to be friendly by asking your SO about his heritage?

Probably most of them, but acknowledging that gets in the way of the drama queen persecution complex. I also wonder how often her boyfriend is insulted vs just her being insulted on his behalf.

[DesignFox]

"C...C...Can't we all get along????"

heheh. I wanted to say that, but refrained.

and anriana, you didn't answer my question. How many people were just trying to be friendly by asking your SO about his heritage?

And yes, it is understandable that some people wouldn't want to celebrate their differences, but many people do. You expect every person in the world to know this, when they don't know you? How do we learn about one another if we don't ask?

Granted, I don't go up to random people and start harping on their ethnicity. No one here said that was polite. But, if I notice someone is different than I am, I might start a conversation and ask some questions. (not just with random guy on the street, but a customer maybe...or someone I made eye contact with who started talking to me...etc.)

As an example:
I worked in an area with many Hasidic (sp?) Jews. Obviously, we have key differences in philosophical leanings. Most of the people I dealt with were extremely happy to have me asking them questions about their religion, rather than just judging them or ignoring them. I would base my questions or my attitudes on the individual person, and some of those people and I had very interesting discussions about our differences. We learned from one another and it was quite positive.

If I notice a person is quite tense, shy or I'm not sure how they'll take to being asked questions, I simply keep my mouth shut. But not all people are good at reading the people around them. Personally, I don't see a need to flip out when someone might just be trying to be nice.

I reserve the flip out for the assholes who deserve it.

[ebonyknight]

Maybe the only way to get along is to quit speaking and interacting with each other, since it's apparently so easy to inadvertently offend someone.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.

Ah, those bygone days of Segregation. The nostalgia, eh?

[jayel]

It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

You are doing the same thing, unless you can show us where some of these people who offended you by guessing at your s.o.'s race actually said he was something other than 'normal and white'.

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.

I think you're right. And this is where the backlash I mentioned came in.

"C...C...Can't we all get along????" *snif*

Oops, we already got that answer.

Maybe the only way to get along is to quit speaking and interacting with each other, since it's apparently so easy to inadvertently offend someone.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.

[protege]

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.

That's *exactly* why this crap continues. Too many idiots (and that's what they are) just won't let old things die. Locally, you don't hear of Asians still pissed about detention camps during WWII, or Jews still pissed about concentration camps. Because of that, it's not uncommon locally to hear things like "those aren't real minorities...because they've done too well (Yes, I know how that sounds...)

A lot of racism is instilled by one thing. Fear. I try not to see people as being "different" or "of color." I try to take people at face value. I try not to let skin color be a factor.

Locally though, it's difficult. For years, I've lived in a mostly-white suburb. That's starting to change, and many residents are *not* happy about it. Many of the new arrivals come from high-crime areas, and long-term residents are worried that our neighborhood will turn into a ghetto. After driving through many of those neighborhoods, I can't say I blame them for thinking like that. I'm not saying I *condone* that thinking, but that I *understand* it.

Most of the black families that are moving in are decent people. They want to escape the drugs, crime, and violence of the ghettos...and do not want to see it continue. Yet, because they have the same skin color, they tend to draw unwanted attention.

Further, when I had my paper route, one of my customers was black. Nicest family ever--they tipped well, invited me in if it was cold, etc. Things changed after someone spray-painted a certain word on their driveway, and vandalized their cars The bastard was never caught, but things changed after that. They were still nice to me, but were always on their guard...even to the neighbors that they'd known for years. Unfortunate, but I can't blame them for that.

[ebonyknight]

"C...C...Can't we all get along????" *snif*

Oops, we already got that answer.

[anriana]

Didn't come out of their mouths either.

It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

[jayel]

Oh dear you've figured out my secret. I'm clearly completely racist and not at all referring to the attitudes of the people who Other my partner.

Didn't come out of their mouths either.

[the_std]

slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

Just to let you know, I'm a Canadian and have been mistaken for American many times before, mostly when I was in Europe. But no, I never took offense to it. It's a subtle difference to them, like the difference between Finnish and Swedish people to me.

[anriana]

Just saying. That seems to be the attitude. If someone DARES describe your ethnicity or race, it's "othering." But if the Mexicans come out and dance and have a party, that's ok. They are celebrating their "other-ness" but it's not ok to point it out when describing someone...hmm. Interesting. We can have parades celebrating Italians....but don't dare "other" them by describing them as Italian.

Because those Mexicans/Italians are choosing to celebrate their culture. Not everyone of a different ethnicity chooses to do so. Sorry, sometimes you have to treat people of different races as individual people and not just one large group of others who should all be treated exactly the same.

You are the first person in this thread I've seen equate 'normal' with 'white'.

That came from you, not me. Kind of telling.

Oh dear you've figured out my secret. I'm clearly completely racist and not at all referring to the attitudes of the people who Other my partner.