Westboro hits close to home

[jedimaster91]

and as my mother would point out, what makes a man inherently more qualified to be a bishop and a woman inherently more qualified to be a Relief Society president?

As my mother would point out, women have the amazing gift of bearing and raising children (show me a biological human male who's done that!). The Lord had to give the men something to do.

In all seriousness, the best answer I can give you is admittedly a personal one that has no basis in cold hard "fact." I'm also not too sure I can put it into words. There was a time I didn't understand why the men held the Priesthood and women didn't and it bothered me. After much study and contemplation I came to the conclusion it's because women don't need it to stay close to God. For whatever reason, the men need a little extra help. Again, this is insanely personal and not something I would expect anyone else to understand. Not entirely sure why I feel compelled to share it either since I know it's going to get trashed, but there ya go.

Sadly, as of yet, you aren't having your way. Sadly, a lot of high level members in Utah share the feelings of those who would commit these heinous acts.

Holding an opinion on something--even a controversial or unpopular one--is one thing. Being destructive with said opinion is quite another.

How can men and women be equal if women can't make decisions that affect the whole church? Can't be bishops? Can't lead church services? To rephrase what Smiley said, what makes men qualified for these positions that at the same time makes women unqualified for the same positions?

Many of the General Authorities of the Church are women and they do make decisions that affect the whole church. Quite frankly, the RS pres holds just as much sway in the ward as the Bishop does. I've seen this phenomenon happening in my own ward that when the women get on board with a project, tremendous progress is made. If that's not power, I don't know what is. But when it comes down to it, unless one has a personal understanding of the role of the family and its members within the church, it's always going to seem like gender discrimination.

And after having been both a Bishop's daughter and a Bishop's wife, take my word for it, you don't want to be the Bishop. I've seen how draining the calling is. Definitely rewarding in countless ways, but draining.

Is this your only objection to violence against gays?

Oh, heavens no. But I learned a long time ago that a legal issue gets a lot farther than a moral one. Besides that, they're not displaying a very Christ-like attitude, are they?

[Hobbs]

That if they all follow the same teachings there is something fundamentally wrong with the source material.

Not necessarily. Have you ever had a historical debate over something? Even though there's factual evidence, there's roughly half a dozen different interpretations of the same source material.

Examples of which would include the Mexican American War, the American Civil War, the Mexican Civil War, the African Diaspora...just to name a few.

[Nyoibo]

That if they all follow the same teachings there is something fundamentally wrong with the source material.

[Hobbs]

Ghel, I really don't understand your logic here.

[Ghel]

Fixed it for you.

I think that was implied. Perhaps I should have said "... that doesn't mean that the moderate churches are correct, either."

[Hobbs]

Just because WBC teaches literal Bible belief that doesn't mean that they are correct.

Fixed it for you.

[Ghel]

I don't see how the absurdity of one sect hangs the rest of them, but to each his (or her in this case) own.

I kind of explained this back on page 2 of this thread. Although there are almost as many sets of beliefs as there are Christians, the one thing that tends to be common is a belief in the Bible. And the Bible teaches subjugation of women, endorses slavery, and threatens infinite torment for finite crimes. Just because WBC teaches literal Bible belief instead of the watered-down version that moderate churches teach, that doesn't mean that the moderate churches are correct.

While LDS women don't hold traditional positions of "authority" the church would not function without them. <snip> Just because responsibilities in the church are different for men and women doesn't mean they're unequal.

How can men and women be equal if women can't make decisions that affect the whole church? Can't be bishops? Can't lead church services? To rephrase what Smiley said, what makes men qualified for these positions that at the same time makes women unqualified for the same positions?

Laws are being broken and that's not right.

Is this your only objection to violence against gays? Do you not realize that LDS's stance on homosexuality is completely unfounded? That their whole basis for it seems to be one small section of a book that was written more than 2000 years ago by superstitious shepherds?

Or, if there's more anti-gay rhetoric in the Book of Mormon, that was written by one guy not so long ago, but are similarly unfounded.

[Kaylyn]

I'm glad that the funeral went smoothly. I know we got off on a couple tangents, but isn't that the way most threads go here on Fratching?

Haha, of course. I don't mind the tangents, that's the whole reason I put it on here instead of the main site, because I knew the tangents would come regardless.

[smileyeagle1021]

I feel the need to correct this. While LDS women don't hold traditional positions of "authority" the church would not function without them. A ward or branch would fall apart without a Relief Society president.

and as my mother would point out, what makes a man inherently more qualified to be a bishop and a woman inherently more qualified to be a Relief Society president?

If these are in fact members, they're not good ones at all and if I had my way, they'd have their membership revoked.

Sadly, as of yet, you aren't having your way. Sadly, a lot of high level members in Utah share the feelings of those who would commit these heinous acts.

[jedimaster91]

Many christian sects still do not recognize equality for women even (women are still not permitted to have positions of authority in either the Mormon or Catholic church as the largest examples, and I know certain synods of the Lutheran church do not allow women clergy).

I feel the need to correct this. While LDS women don't hold traditional positions of "authority" the church would not function without them. A ward or branch would fall apart without a Relief Society president. My husband (the Bishop) relies heavily on our RS pres to keep him in the loop and inform him of issues with families and to handle what he can't. And I would not be the person I am today without the Young Women leaders I had as a teenager. The men can't do everything and some situations require a woman's touch. Just because responsibilities in the church are different for men and women doesn't mean they're unequal.

There has not been a single hate crime committed in Utah that was NOT committed by a Christian, with the majority being of the Mormon variety.

While I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience, I really wish you would stop painting us all with the same brush. Not all of us are complete law-breaking nutjobs. What you've described is completely unacceptable, no matter who is involved and those individuals should be arrested and prosecuted. I don't care how you feel about a particular cause, vandalism and assault are not acceptable ways to show it. The DA, regardless of his/her personal feelings on a case has a duty to proscecute when a crime has been committed. If he/she is unwilling to do so, go as high as you have to. Laws are being broken and that's not right. If these are in fact members, they're not good ones at all and if I had my way, they'd have their membership revoked.

[Hobbs]

That may be, but this thread is about Westboro Baptist Church and the absurdities of their beliefs and practices (as well as Christianity in general).

I don't see how the absurdity of one sect hangs the rest of them, but to each his (or her in this case) own.

[crashhelmet]

Nuns are the equivalent of monks, not priests. There are no female priests in the Catholic Church, or most other Christian churches. Performing Last Rights / Annointing of the Sick / Extreme Unction is not the same as leading a mass, performing a wedding, etc. Those who follow biblical teachings (such as Fred Phelps and his WBC) believe that women should be silent in church/temple and not allowed to hold a position of authority, particularly over men. This is just the beginning of how misogynist the Abrahamic religions are.

Yes, the verse is 1Timothy2 9:15 if you feel the need to look it up and it is the answer a Catholic priest will give you if you ask why there are no female priests.

But if that were true about Phelps, how does his daughter get away with running her mouth off at every available moment? There are times I believe she's far worse than he is.

[Ghel]

If I'm not mistaken, Buddhists also have a distinction between nuns and priests. Also, many pre-Colombian religions didn't even have a female sect/caste to them and were led by priests. Some of them were warrior priests.

That may be, but this thread is about Westboro Baptist Church and the absurdities of their beliefs and practices (as well as Christianity in general).

Thank you, but as posted in my update that got overlooked with all the debate, they had already gotten in touch with the family, and there were hundreds of the Patriot Guard there. The funeral was this past Saturday.

Westboro showed up but decided to protest somewhere besides where they were supposed to be, from what I understand. I wasn't told where they wound up protesting exactly.

I'm glad that the funeral went smoothly. I know we got off on a couple tangents, but isn't that the way most threads go here on Fratching?

[Kaylyn]

Cheers.

Also, thought this might be of help to the OP.

http://www.patriotguard.org/

Thank you, but as posted in my update that got overlooked with all the debate, they had already gotten in touch with the family, and there were hundreds of the Patriot Guard there. The funeral was this past Saturday.

Westboro showed up but decided to protest somewhere besides where they were supposed to be, from what I understand. I wasn't told where they wound up protesting exactly.

[Hobbs]

If I'm not mistaken, Buddhists also have a distinction between nuns and priests. Also, many pre-Colombian religions didn't even have a female sect/caste to them and were led by priests. Some of them were warrior priests.

In actuality, there are circumstances for a nun to even perform confession.