Immunisations...

[fireheart17]

Just putting a question here...do you think that immunisation is worth it? I've seen both sides of the equation argument wise.

One side is arguing that it's necessary.

The other side is arguing that it's ineffective.

[DesignFox]

Very necessary. Anyone who thinks it does more harm than good is a bit off their rocker in my opinion. Especially because the only arguments I've heard against immunization is that people think it causes Autism- which I've read the articles, and they state that there is NO direct correlation.

Thanks to immunization, certain diseases have been eradicated. I for instance, never had to worry about mumps, measles or polio. I've received shots against hepatitis, meningitis, tetanus...and that's just the ones I can think of.

As with my argument regarding euthanasia- I'll apply the same logic- We immunize our pets to prevent the spread of disease and suffering, so why not ourselves?

[lordlundar]

It depends. Depending on the disease, after several generations have been inoculated, further inoculations are useless, as it becomes part of the genetic code that gets passed on. In other cases, it's pretty much vital to battle new strains.

Sadly, it's the way the arguments are set up. The pro-inoculation groups are usually drug companies or someone getting money from them in one way or another. If it keep the money rolling in, they will propagate the fear that you need more shots.

The anti-inoculation groups on the other hand, are usually the scare mongers who want to incite panic. These are the people who keep saying you're poisoning your body by getting one. If they knew how inoculations work, they would be inciting riots.

[Pedersen]

Innoculations are a good thing. The concern, though, seems to be focused on the "too many" area, coupled with the fact that some of the innoculations out there use Thimerosal (a mercury containing preservative).

Take a young body, where even a very small amount of anything can have a heightened effect simply due to proportions (you, as an adult take 250mg, and give 250mg to a 1 year old, the 1 year old has proportionally more of the same substance in his system). Mercury is bad stuff. Has some [URL=http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts46.html]nasty effects in kids[URL].

Now, when kids go to get vaccinations, they have a lot of them to get anymore. I admit I don't know the total number, but I've heard (from my new parent co-worker) of kids getting five and six innoculations at a time. One appointment, five shots. That's a lot of fluid going into the kid's system, all at once. And most (if not all) of those, will contain some dose of mercury.

If I were a parent, I'd be limiting the number of shots. More trips to the doctor, sure, but I'd make damned sure that I felt comfortable with the number that was happening. I don't know what that number would be, but I know I'd be nervous about my kid getting five shots at a pop.

The worries are, to my mind reasonable. The workarounds are also reasonable. Am I wrong? Maybe. But, in this case, being wrong does no harm, and it could prevent a problem if I act responsibly about it.

But none of that changes the fact that innoculations are a good thing. It just changes how I would go about getting them.

[BlaqueKatt]

And most (if not all) of those, will contain some dose of mercury.

just out of curiosity did you even READ the link to thimerisol concerns you linked?


quoted in bold on that page about one inch from the top-

"Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines."

there's more thimerisol in contact lens solution than in vaccines-so if the child has ANY mercury exposure it would come from the pregnant mother still using her contact lens solution, and the mercury passing from her to the fetus.

Info here on fish consumption-they even have a mercury calculator-for example I at 130 pounds would have to eat 7.5 pounds of canned tuna, 91 pounds of tilapia, or 6.5 pounds of salmon a week to begin to see any potential danger--it's hype nothing more.

[tabbyblack13]

I'm in the middle. I can see the need for them but if a child get 5 in one sitting then it's too much for there immune system. They are young and have a weaker immune system. I have heard of babies getting Hepatitis B shots and that's a STD. I think that some of them are probably not necessary.

I admit I will only get what I have to. Mostly tetanus shoots. I do this because I believe that it is OK to get sick on occasion. If you get a yearly physical and are smart about what you do when you are sick then there shouldn't be a problem. The only immunization I want to get the Rabies one. It's mostly for just in case of attack of a wild animal. Rabies cases have increased in the area and I do a lot of work outside by myself. I have never gotten a Flu shot even when I was in College and as of so far I haven't gotten the Flu. It's mostly due to keeping my area clean, washing hands, and taking vitamins. If I'm not feeling well I stay home.

[Dreamstalker]

From what I've read, Hep B can be transmitted in other ways (transfusions, bloodsucking insect who has bitten an infected person, passed from mother to child, contact with any mucosa and infected bodily fluids).

at least 30% of reported hepatitis B among adults cannot be associated with an identifiable risk factor

[Greenday]

I understand the importance of getting a vaccine. In fact, I definitely agree with most of them. But I seriously believe that certain diseases continually are evolving and getting stronger because of them. Like the flu for instance.

I've always thought the end of the human race would be from a super-bug. I definitely think over-vaccinating everyone will do it too.

[BlaqueKatt]

But I seriously believe that certain diseases continually are evolving and getting stronger because of them. Like the flu for instance.

The flu mutates if we vaccinate or not-viruses usually do-the flu actually has the ability to swap genes with other strains.

The so called "super-bugs" are created not by over vaccination but by people abusing or not finishing their antibiotics. the multi-drug resistant strains of TB came from people stopping their meds because they "felt better"-even though there were still bacteria present-to fully treat TB it can take up to a year-you start felling better after a few weeks/months. MRSA is the same-also overuse of "anti bacterial" soaps containing triclosan-more dangers of triclosan can be found here

[crazylegs]

I'm in the middle. I can see the need for them but if a child get 5 in one sitting then it's too much for there immune system. They are young and have a weaker immune system.

This is completely false, a child picks up hundreds of infectious organisms daily, through doing things that kids do, by playing in the soil, sticking things in their mouths and generally being unslovenly. If you look at what kids do you are horrified at what they expose themselves to; 5 organisms is a walk in the park for their enhanced immune system, if you look at a child immune system as a total % of an adults you will find that it is well over 100% exactly for that reason.

Children have to fight thousands of germs that are totally new to them, so their immune system is in constant overdrive, looking for new threats. Once you've reached adulthood you've encountered most things already so you only really need enough immune system to stop the common cold from killing you.

[AFPheonix]

I understand the importance of getting a vaccine. In fact, I definitely agree with most of them. But I seriously believe that certain diseases continually are evolving and getting stronger because of them. Like the flu for instance.

I've always thought the end of the human race would be from a super-bug. I definitely think over-vaccinating everyone will do it too.

Flu vaccines are reformulated every year. There's really not anything for flu bugs to get acclimated to. Besides, that's not how vaccines work anyways. It's little bits of the virus itself to let the body know what to fight, not a chemical fighting the virus or bacteria. Those can cause for selection for immunity to drugs to occur.

Besides, there's a new flu vaccine in production that targets a more universal portion of the virus. Pretty cool.

We are having issues with superbugs for quite a few reasons: people getting antibiotics inappropriately, like say, if they have a viral infection, not a bacterial one. There are other times where a bacterial infection would resolve just fine on its own without antibiotics. Ear infections fall into this category a lot of the time.
Poor sterile technique in hospitals also contributes to the production and spread of resistant strains if staphs and other bacteria.
And finally, overuse of anti-bacterial cleaning agents in homes has selected for resistant strains of bacteria.

Immunizations are a wonderful thing and have saved countless lives. Go look for some epidemiology pictures of stuff we don't see anymore like scarlet fever, mumps, and other nasty diseases that have been well controlled by this simple act. It is possibly the most socially responsible thing a parent can do, and ensures that they won't be just relying on herd immunity to protect their kid from debilitating or even deadly diseases that are preventable.

[Daskinor]

Immunizations are a good thing. Most of the negative publicity comes from the same camps who think GM foods are bad. This idea that it is unnatural and some kind of conspiracy.

Fact is that vaccinations have eliminated many dangerous diseases in just a generation or two. Also the same tactics we use to vaccinate children, nature already does. A mothers milk contains antibodies for anything that her body is actively fighting off. Of course a mother that is tending to a newborn, will be exposed to the same pathogens and make antibodies for them. The baby will then receive them through the breast milk. Observing this effect is how the first vaccine was developed in the first place.

Another argument is that, "A baby's immune system is not ready for vaccines." Or some variant where its not healthy to tax a baby's immune system. This is simply false, a baby's immune system has the same capability as our own. Theirs is simply untrained. They will get sick, and more often then us simply because it already happened to us. Plus, in a given day a baby's immune system will fight off thousands of would be invaders every day. Adding one or two to the mix generally does not make a difference. Getting 5 injections at once will also not hurt a child. The body will simply move the material and filter the water out through the kidneys. I believe the root of the to many injections argument, is that parents do not like to see their children in pain. So they will do what they can to limit that pain.

Do Vaccines become ineffective over time, and generations? Some people believe that after a certain point the ability to resist a certain disease becomes ingrained in our genetic code. This is not true. A vaccine does not alter our DNA so we can never gain a genetic immunity that way. Mothers pass on antibodies for diseases. However, to have enough of antibodies to make the transfer she needs to be in constant exposure to that pathogen. This protects a baby from what is common in their environment, and why young kids are more likely to get sick on vacation.

Genetic immunities only happen when a population has a natural immunity to a disease. Generally a side effect of an existing genetic mutation. Instead of becoming immune because of infection, they where never able to be infected in the first place. If the disease kills off enough people without the mutation, then people with it will become more prevalent and spread the mutation.

Do some kids get sick after a vaccination. Yes, their bodies are attempting to fight of a potential illness. Just because the disease is armed with blanks. does not mean the child's immune system will not use whatever is in its arsenal. Most reactions are mild compared to the disease they could get without it. Vaccines that use live viruses tend to cause more of a reaction to dead ones.

Next up is autism. Yes there is no proof vaccines cause autism. There is no proof that mercury causes it either. The vaccines cause autism idea is so wide spread due to the parents of children with autism. Most believe that the vaccines caused it. Why the idea is so wide spread in that group of people is basic human psychology. We are very afraid of making defective children. When it happens we want to believe it is not our fault. Also most cases are discovered during the the time when most vaccinations are given. The only case of autism symptoms caused by a vaccination was with a girl that had a very rare disorder. She did not have autism but a rare mitochondrial issue that the vaccine reacted with.

Neurological damage due to mercury is well known. However it also needs to occur in particular circumstances. Exposure to mercury is most dangerous when airborne. Large airborne concentrations can cause immediate neurological issues. Mercury absorbed this way has a half life of 60 days in the human body. Organic mercury is the main culprit when people talk about health risks from mercury. Of these methylmercury is the problematic one. It is know to cause birth defects in children. It is produced by water born micro organisms. This is why fish is bad for pregnant women. Now Thimerosal breaks down in the body to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury can be toxic but not nearly as dangerous as methylmercury. The amount of ethylmercury produced from Thimerosal in a series of injections before 2001 was well below level needed to cause any neurological issues in test animals. The half life of ethylmercury is 18 days in a human body, so their is little chance of buildup over time.

And last vaccines do not cause super viruses to evolve. Some viruses with highly mutable structures can change enough to confuse our immune systems. The way viruses reproduce limits how they change. Viruses infect a cell and that cell starts making copies. This limits how much genetic change can happen to a virus. Also vaccinations are a preventive medication. Comparing them to anti-viral or antibiotics is apples to oranges. Preventing sickness is not the same as curring it. Your body is still going to fight it on a cellular level, not a molecular level like a drug.

Point is worst case, your infected with a disease you have an immunity to, Say a flu. Your body then will send out its defences. Your pre-existing immune cells will try to bind with it. Those cells then find out that it cant destroy this disease it just to different then the last one we destroyed. Your body will then use other cells to capture the pathogen and take it to where it can find the right one. But your body can fight it, it may get sick but it can try to fight it.

On the other hand you are having trouble fighting it and need the drugs you are now playing roulette. Their is a chance of a mutated version of the pathogen in your system that is now immune to the drug. It reproduces and we have a drug resistant strain. This is a risk of any medication antibiotic or antiviral, so only uses if necessary!

Both of those cases can be very bad. But a failure to prevent is much worse then a failure to treat. So get your children vaccinated!

[Boozy]

If there was an award for "Most Informative Post", yours would win, Daskinor.

How did you come to know so much about this kind of stuff?

[fireheart17]

Bravo Daskinor!

Lately, in my state there have been a few cases of measles and whooping cough going around (both of which I'm immunised for). I've mentioned the site before, but AdelaideNow has places where you can write comments. Almost immediately, about half the comments regarding the whooping cough article were slamming those who were anti-vaccination.

[AdminAssistant]

There was a mumps outbreak on my campus several years ago - the CDC and WHO got called in and it was apparently a huge deal. So, before you can get registered for your second semester, you have to prove that you've gotten your MMR shots. Guess who had an incomplete shot record? I only had one on my shot record, so I had to go and get another one. Yay. And, apparently, if you're living in the dorms, you are required to get a meningitis shot; it's not just a recommendation like at all the other schools I've gone to.