Spanking children

[crazylegs]

In the cases you cited, their opinions are completely worthless because they aren't being responsible for a child.

They were responsible for the child(ren), which is why they were able to act how they did, random laymen wouldn't have been able to abuse the authority and trust.

The people cited all *thought* that what they were doing was right, or proper; it was their opinion. Although we (as a society as a whole) can see that what they were doing was wrong they could not.

They have an opinion and (in theory) could debate about the rights and wrongs of it, to write off others opinions because they do not fit into narrow bands is dangerous.

[AFPheonix]

You didn't seem to have a problem with the people who don't have kids yet are ok with spanking. Am I making that up?

[Zyanya]

A theory is only as such until such time as it is disproven, I have given three examples (very high publicity ones) where their opinion on childcare is not valid yet they are parents.

Does that actually change what I said?

In the cases you cited, their opinions are completely worthless because they aren't being responsible for a child. The exact opposite, in fact, which is why their activities showed up in the news.

You seem to be ok with people who have no experience in a particular field yet still agree with you.

You seem to be adept at making things up.

[crazylegs]

A theory is worth more than a hypothesis because it is tested and thus more likely to be true.

Therefore the opinion of someone who has actual experience in the matter and thus is offering a theory is more valid than the opinion of someone who has just thought about it and made some casual observations and thus has a hypothesis.


Thus, as I said earlier - an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

And - it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

A theory is only as such until such time as it is disproven, I have given three examples (very high publicity ones) where their opinion on childcare is not valid yet they are parents.

[AFPheonix]

No, you're explanation was more along the lines of "if your opinion is not the 'right' opinion, then it's not valid." You seem to be ok with people who have no experience in a particular field yet still agree with you.

Look, I don't have a problem with spanking. Some people do and seem to bring up children perfectly fine without it. There's also parents who do or don't spank and their kids are hellions. In which case, I would think that perhaps it's not the spanking or lack of it that is at fault, it's the ability of the parent to outwit the child.

There really is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Zyanya]

So then please explain why that particular line of reasoning is valid to you, but the other instances in which I applied the same reasoning are all of a sudden strawmen.

Did. Read.

[Slytovhand]

Aaarghhh... I only thought of this tonight, and it was pretty obvious!

Firstly, the line of argument that we're heading towards OT, should really be in the 'Bad Arguments' thread, cos that's what's really going on here.

But, since we're already on here, I'll throw it in here...

'Scientific Method'... is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

There is a whole stack of different ways a question can be asked, as in what is implied.

Is it a question relating to directions or method? As in, "How do you change a lightbulb?" - follow the instrucitons in order).

Questions of personal preference - "Do you prefer chocolate or vanilla?"

Questions of imperative - "Which is faster, V6 or V8?"

And, of course, questions of morality - "Is the death penalty good for society?". These wonderful little buggers have the added presumption built in somewhere - that either morals are Absolute (and thus there is a definite - even if unknown - correct or incorrect answer), or they are Relative (no definite correct or incorrect - it all depends and can change relevant to time, culture, society, etc).


This here question (of spanking children) comes to us from either the moralistic, the personal preferance or the imperative line. The best you can hope for as far as previous posts, is "Is spanking an effective method for disciplining children?". If you even try to go with 'scientific method' for arguing for or against, you completely lose any type of control subjects. So there is only personal and anecdotal experience to come into play...which hardly counts given the 6 billion people on the planet to compare to your 2,3 or even 20 people that you've known. Let alone having any idea on how that person would have turned out anyway...

If it's moralistic - well, it has no relevance at all. And all opinions are valid (although, those who have studied morals might be slightly more of an authority - but only because they've looked at the question more in depth).

Personal preference then? Hey - no-one is more of an authority on what I want than me... so my opinion is valid

(did I forget anything??)


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

So then please explain why that particular line of reasoning is valid to you, but the other instances in which I applied the same reasoning are all of a sudden strawmen.

[Zyanya]

Saying that someone's opinions aren't worth very much

I'm sorry, which of these facts did you have a problem with me stating?

1) People who have experience in the matter and have already achieved good results have more valid opinions
2) People often remember their childhoods as they choose to, not how they necessarily happened.

Let's look at basic scientific method, shall we?

When you have a bit of data, you can form a hypothesis. A hypothesis is simply an opinion on what you feel the result should be.

Now, if you actually test this hypothesis and are proven correct, it becomes what is known as a theory.

A theory is worth more than a hypothesis because it is tested and thus more likely to be true.

Therefore the opinion of someone who has actual experience in the matter and thus is offering a theory is more valid than the opinion of someone who has just thought about it and made some casual observations and thus has a hypothesis.


Thus, as I said earlier - an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

And - it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

[protege]

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine

Been there, done that. My mother wasn't afraid to spank us if we misbehaved and/or mouthed off to her. She managed to break several yardsticks in the process. Yes it hurt like hell, no it didn't leave marks. Of course 20-25 years ago, people tended to mind their own damn business about that There's a big difference between spanking and outright abuse. My mother would spank us just once to make her point. Usually, that was all that was necessary. My brothers though...not so much Still, we turned out fine. Odd, because my mother always said that my younger brother wouldn't see his way past 5. Troublesome bastard, he is.

...and it's not just kids that got spanked. Grandma used to hit Kitty with the broom if he scratched her. Not hard, just enough to startle him. I never had to do that, a swat on the tail, and a firm "BAD KITTY!" did the trick. Eventually though, just calling him a "bad kitty" was enough. He seemed to hate being called a "bad kitty" and usually behaved himself. Kitty got plenty of praise when he'd get mice, and was constantly being told he was a "nice, good kitty."

[Slytovhand]

Perhaps this term 'spank' needs to be defined. While there is no specific definition to it here in this thread, we're free to interpret it as much as we want... into any direction. Is there a difference between a 'spanking' and a 'slap' (as in on the wrist).

For my part (other than my aforementioned), it comes down to 'parenting' as a whole and that also includes the whole idea of creating a person.. a human being with strength, courage, wisdom, intelligence, self-empowerment, compassion etc etc.

I don't see that spanking comes into that.

Neither does molly-coddling. (is that a standard word out there?? Cos I was thinking that 'fanny' has a slightly different meaning in some parts of the world as well )

As for validity of opinions How many of us have politicians who actually know anything about what they're in charge of? Does your treasurer or finance minister have a degree in
Accounting or Economics? And they look after the country!!


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

Hint - Try reading my posts.

This being what I actually said -



Not 'if you have no children you should shut the f up.', as you seem to think I said.

Did I say that you said that? Please point out where I said or even thought that. The_STD quoted the line you stated that I refuted.

[Amethyst Hunter]

But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

Agreed. You don't have to be a parent to know that there are just certain things one does not do to raise a child properly (i.e., feeding them crap food 24/7, giving them a steady diet of TV instead of getting them to read, etc.). (And yes, for the record, I'm not a parent.)

I support spanking - within obvious reason. There is a world of difference between spanking that says "I TOLD you not to do X and you did it anyway!" and spanking that's just plain all-out abusive beating.

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine (Excepting my mental illnesses, but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms and I guarantee you the spankings had nothing to do with it). If anything, this is one of the many, many reasons why I myself do not ever want kids; I fly off the handle VERY easily at even slight provocations and I fear that I would easily cross that line from acceptable spanking to outright abuse. I refuse to subject an innocent child to that kind of mood swinging.

Now, if you wanna discuss my lifelong aversion/hatred of wooden spoons, you might be on to something...

[the_std]

Well, yes. Being a parent will change an individual's views, there's no doubt about that possibility. But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

[CancelMyService]

Opinions are all well and good but (and for the record I'm not a parent either) I would have to think once you have kids and you're responsible for raising them to behave properly, you might come to rethink your views when it becomes a 24/7 job.

Not to say that they *definately* would change, but certainly the possiblity is there.