My Imminent Divorce

[Ghel]

Thanks, patiokitty.

Mycha actually apologized for bringing up what hubby said above. He said to focus on the love, not the loss. It's good to know I've got a few supportive people in my life.

STBEH is supposed to be getting a check from his retirement fund next week, so he is flying up in two weeks to rent a UHaul and take his stuff to TN with him. It kind of pisses me off that he expects me to pack up all of his stuff so he can just load it up and take it with him. OTOH, I want to get his stuff out of the house.

He emailed me yesterday while I was working to talk about which things he wanted. Most of it was reasonable - stuff that he'd bought and I don't want anyway. Most things we've got two of, such as two tvs and two beds. He can have the bigger of each. I don't need a king size bed or a ginormous tv. But it pissed me off that he was bothering me while I was working to discuss it.

It's going to be very difficult to be face-to-face with him again. He wants to get together with friends while he's here for a sort-of going away lunch. At first, it sounded like he wanted me to arrange the lunch, so I told him I'd leave it up to him to contact everyone he wanted to invite.

[patiokitty]

Your STBEH's statement to Mycha makes it pretty clear that he sees you as a possession, not as a person. I have a feeling that it has been that way for a long time. And as his possession you were expected to do what he tells you - I don't think he ever intended for you to have interests outside of what he dictated for you, hence him not even thinking to get your opinion on setting up the quad with Ali and Al. Also, I don't think he cares what you mean simply because he refuses to think you're a capable human being, so speaking to him is not going to solve anything.

The best revenge is proving the other party wrong. Go out there, live independently, and have fun doing it. And when your STBEH's happy little mirage falls apart you get to sit back and laugh because he brought it on himself.

[Ghel]

Mycha reminded me yesterday of something my STBEH said to him the day after I said I wanted to get divorced. "She's all yours. You can take care of her now."

Like he was giving away a pet or transferring property. Mycha focused more on the idea that Hubby was giving him permission to be with me, but I see it more that Hubby didn't see me as an independent person, able to take care of myself and make my own decisions.

I tried to explain to Hubby several times that if I don't have the option to be on my own (emotionally, financially, etc.), then the choice to stay with him isn't really a choice, it's coercion. Although he agreed with me at the time, his statement to Mycha suggests he doesn't really understand what I meant.

[SkullKing]

I think this was a big part of it. He wanted to meet Ali, and Ali wanted Al and me to get together. So, yeah, it was the "price" to be with Ali.

I also think part of it was that he was "counting." He wanted to be "fair." If he was seeing someone else, he wanted me to see someone else. But since he was only seeing one other person, I could only see one other person. And that other person had to be Al, because that was the price. If I wanted to meet Mycha, that would no longer be "fair" to him.

The more you talk about him, the more he sounds to me like someone who found out about poly and thought "excuse to cheat", but knowing it is wrong still feels a bit bad about it, but not really(thus not being fair, but trying to give himself the argument of being fair).

[Ghel]

And I hope you and Mycha get to meet each other.

Thanks. I think it's only a matter of time now. Mycha says that once things settle down for me (once the house is sold and I'm in my new place), he wants me to fly out to see him. Alternatively, if the house isn't sold by Thanksgiving, he's planning on flying out to see me. He doesn't want me to feel lonely around the holidays.

thing is, I get the feeling that he considered Ghel and Al as the "price" to be able to be with Ali.

I think this was a big part of it. He wanted to meet Ali, and Ali wanted Al and me to get together. So, yeah, it was the "price" to be with Ali.

I also think part of it was that he was "counting." He wanted to be "fair." If he was seeing someone else, he wanted me to see someone else. But since he was only seeing one other person, I could only see one other person. And that other person had to be Al, because that was the price. If I wanted to meet Mycha, that would no longer be "fair" to him.

aka: stupid-ass OPP (one-penis-policy)

There could be more than one penis, as long as that second penis was Al's. But I see what you're saying. Even when I was with Al, Hubby became insecure.

[siead_lietrathua]

Not to mention, if he truly was insecure about Ghel sleeping with Al, then that means it's inherently problematic- he was comfortable enough with him sleeping with other people, but insecure when it's his own wife sleeping with other people. It's the same problem.

aka: stupid-ass OPP (one-penis-policy)
aka: the shit that spells out "hypocrite"

[s_stabeler]

He was ok with Ghel and Al, as long as he was allowed to be with Ali (though he was insecure when they did the swap), and he was willing to be in a closed quad, which is a lot different from a "sleep with anyone" situation

thing is, I get the feeling that he considered Ghel and Al as the "price" to be able to be with Ali. Not to mention, if he truly was insecure about Ghel sleeping with Al, then that means it's inherently problematic- he was comfortable enough with him sleeping with other people, but insecure when it's his own wife sleeping with other people. It's the same problem.

[SkullKing]

actually, this sounds suspiciously to me like "I get to fuck who I want to, but you don't get to fuck who you want to"- which to me is the sign of an asshole.

He was ok with Ghel and Al, as long as he was allowed to be with Ali (though he was insecure when they did the swap), and he was willing to be in a closed quad, which is a lot different from a "sleep with anyone" situation

He does seem like an asshole though.

@Ghel: seems to me you escaped from a relationship who was gradually turning abusive. And I hope you and Mycha get to meet each other.

[Ghel]

Being able to vent here in anonymity helps a lot. Every time I write down something he's done (in the past - none of this is more recent than two weeks ago, now), it helps me realize that I'm making the right decision.

Your husband clearly does not understand how polyamoury works - he does not get to control who you sleep with like that, especially when he got to pick out who he now gets to sleep with. It's fine for him to meet up with somebody he's never met in person and fuck them, but it's not fine for you? Yeah, it doesn't work like that.

You are better off without him and you are definitely making the right choice in divorcing his sorry ass.

Thanks. I see it the same way.

If there's something wrong with me traveling to New York to meet someone I've "never met," then there was the same thing wrong with Ali and Al to travel to MN from TN to meet us, who they'd "never met" before then.

I think he got the idea for the relationship agreement from the "Polyamory Handbook" that I'd been reading portions of to him. At the time, we had agreed that we didn't need anything in writing. We just needed to talk with each other about how we wanted to handle things. One of the things we discussed is that, although we needed approval from the other to add a secondary relationship, we would at least get to know the secondary and discuss it before vetoing it. Obviously that didn't happen with Mycha.

It still pisses me off that, in Hubby's view, Mycha was supposed to contact him and get to know him "if he wants to get involved with someone else's wife." And he said this after he was given several opportunities to get to know Mycha. I think it was just justifying his inaction after the fact.

[kaycivine]

Your Hubby sounds like a spoiled manipulative child.

I'm sorry you're stressed and hurting, but its probably better he is now becoming an ex-hubby.
Gah. That type of person makes me mad.

[patiokitty]

Your husband clearly does not understand how polyamoury works - he does not get to control who you sleep with like that, especially when he got to pick out who he now gets to sleep with. It's fine for him to meet up with somebody he's never met in person and fuck them, but it's not fine for you? Yeah, it doesn't work like that.

You are better off without him and you are definitely making the right choice in divorcing his sorry ass.

[Kheldarson]

I was more thinking it was "I wanted permission to cheat, but it backfired when my wife actually turned out to be interested in poly".

[s_stabeler]

actually, this sounds suspiciously to me like "I get to fuck who I want to, but you don't get to fuck who you want to"- which to me is the sign of an asshole.

[siead_lietrathua]

wow.. hubby sounds like a douche. and i stand by my "he wants you as a unicorn" thing.
i mean, i don't like using this phrase, but goddamn he fails at poly. hell, he just fails at husband-ness. hypocritical douchebag that thinks, what, it's all good if you fuck who he wants you to, but not who you want to? jeeebus.
you are so better off.

[Ghel]

Even though it's kind of moot now, I want to go into greater detail about the bullshit that my STBEH said about Mycha (and Steve, although the worst stuff was about Mycha). Italics are my thoughts, most of which I didn't express out loud.

Mycha and I have been talking about wanting to meet for nearly a year. The first time that he might have been able to meet me was towards the end of January. He was flying out to the west coast for business, and he said he wanted to stop at the closest airport to meet me on the way back. Probably stay overnight, then fly out the next day. When I mentioned this to Hubby, at first he sounded like he was ok with it. And then he's like, "wait, does this mean you're going to have sex with him?" Duh. "Well, probably." "I'm not comfortable with that." That's a phrase he used frequently. "I don't know him." You've talked to him on Second Life. Talk with him there some more. Or exchange emails. Or something. Just get to know him, if that's what's bothering you.

Mycha offered to meet both of us for dinner, before we went our separate ways. Hubby's response: "So... what? I'm supposed to sit through an awkward dinner, then at the end just say, 'good night. Have a nice time fucking my wife'?" There's another saying he used frequently - "my wife." He made it sound like I was his property when he said that.

So that got delayed. Mycha casually talked about coming out to visit me. I could show him around my town. But that never happened.

Then, in April (I think - it was after I got back from TN) Mycha said that he was taking some vacation in July, and he'd love to have me fly out to New York to stay with him for a week. So I mentioned it to Hubby. He said, again, that he wasn't comfortable with that. I'd be 1000 miles away with a stranger (only because you didn't make the effort to get to know him). If something went wrong, he wouldn't be there to rescue me. Really? What patriarchal bullshit.

So meeting Mycha got put off again. I brought it up every once in a while, and Hubby repeated his refrain of "I"m not comfortable with that." He resisted any suggestions that he could become comfortable with it. He passed responsibility to Al - Al wouldn't be comfortable with it. But Al had only said to me to make sure Mycha's been tested for STDs and to use protection. (Again, this focus on sex instead of emotion. Aren't you at all worried that he'll treat me poorly or break my heart? Do you only care what STDs I might bring back with me? As if I wouldn't practice safe sex without you reminding me?)

Then it came time for Hubby to head to TN. The day before he left, we had a huge argument, mostly because I was afraid of being alone. But Mycha came up in conversation again. I don't remember what led up to it, but Hubby asked, "And despite the strain it's putting on our relationship, you still want to meet him?" I said, "Yes, I still want to meet him. But I'm not going to, since you're not comfortable with it." I still don't think he understood that I was trying to differentiate between desires and actions.

This last part took place over the course of at least a week via text and phone. Most of it was part of the discussions of how we wanted to handle polyamory and the quad, etc. I used Mycha as an example of someone I might want to have an outside relationship with. Hubby repeated the "1000 miles away with a stranger" several times. That he needed to protect me. He said that it was Mycha's responsibility to get to know him if he wanted to "fuck my wife." Yeah, because I belong to my husband. Never mind that Mycha's in a relationship with me, not with Hubby. What if something went wrong? What if I had to barricade myself in the bathroom? He'd be too far away to come rescue me. Right, because my first call if there was an emergency is going to be to my husband, and not, say, 911.

Then came the slut-shaming type remarks. "Aren't Al and I enough for you?" "How are you going to juggle four relationships? You're not doing a very good job of it now." "I'm your primary partner, but I don't feel like you're putting me first." I still maintain this was a lack of effective communication combined with his insecurities. For example, Steve would email me to ask if I was free that night. I would ask Hubby if we had any plans - giving him the option to say something like, "We didn't have plans, but let's do something together." He almost never did. He said later that he thought, if I was asking him if we had plans, that I had already made plans with Steve. So he would respond that we didn't have plans, and I would say, "Ok, then I'm spending the evening with Steve." Then he would mope.

Then came the subject of the semi-closed quad, along with the relationship agreement and safe-sex agreement for outside lovers. I tentatively agreed to the relationship agreement for the four of us, but I balked at having Mycha sign anything. "If he doesn't care enough about you to sign an agreement to practice safe sex, why would you want to be with him?" I trust him enough that I believe him at his word. Having him sign something would show that I don't trust him. It's not like it would be legally enforceable anyway. Nor would there be repercussions for breaking the agreement other than the end of our relationship. If he didn't want to use a condom, then I wouldn't have sex with him. That's the same whether he's signed anything or not.

Hubby also made slut-shaming remarks about Mycha. "I don't want you to be with someone who admits to having multiple partners." Multiple partners - yeah, 3 in the past 5 years. 6 in the past 15 years. If there's something wrong with Mycha for having multiple partners, then there's the same thing wrong with me, and with Hubby and Ali and Al, for having multiple partners. When I expressed this, Hubby's response was that Mycha had (he assumed) received anal sex, so that's different. For reasons. (Maybe it's TMI, but) I, too, have received anal sex from multiple partners. Am I a bad person in the same way as Mycha just because of anal sex? That's not the same thing, because reasons. Unstated reasons, because Hubby didn't have an answer to that one.

Then came the homophobic remarks. This part is heavily paraphrased because it took a really long time to draw out what Hubby was really getting at. Because Mycha's bisexual, he might at some time received anal sex, which if done without protection would put him at higher risk of certain types of STDs. Which I might catch and pass on to other members of the quad. Besides the selfish bit about each of you trying to save your own skins, you're assuming a couple things about Mycha without even knowing him. You're assuming that (a) he engaged in a particular sex act that he might not have, and more importantly, (b) that he doesn't practice safe sex.

Hubby said that the only thing Mycha wanted from me was sex, and as soon as he had it, he'd dump me. And then I'd be running to Hubby for comfort. Never mind that Mycha lives in New York City. He wouldn't have to go all the way to Minnesota to find someone willing to have sex with him.

And then, when I'd had enough of all this, Hubby said that I was leaving him because I wanted to have sex with Mycha. That I was selfish, with the implication that I wanted to have sex with as many different people as possible, and damn the consequences.

Every time I think about it, the more sure I am that I'm doing the right thing. Still, I had to mentally slap my internal monologue the other day. I was stuck on the question "are you sure this is what you want to do?" My response was "What I want isn't going to happen, so this is what I have to do."